Mageth

You need to admit to Him you are a sinner and ask His forgiveness. Believe and have Faith that he died on the cross to save you of your sins, and thank Him for taking your place, even though you are undeserving and believe that He was ressurected on the 3rd day, and ask Him into your life to work your life in accordance with Him. Ask Him to be your Lord and Savior.

I've never really gotten the logic of this. Jesus died on the cross to save us from what? From god's wrath, which requires sin to be punished! Jesus is god; therefore Jesus died to save us from himself. Or, as Koyaanisqatsi put it, Jesus sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.

And why should I need to believe to be saved? Am I saved by Jesus' crucifixion, or by the act of believing in the crucifixion? Xians typically claim that there is nothing we can do, no action we can take, to save ourselves, that's why Jesus had to die. But if you don't do something (believe and ask forgiveness), there's no salvation.

Angrillori

Oh my goodness, this has me laughing out loud, at work nonetheless! I've never heard it phrased so succinctly before! Kudos! Mind if I use it often?

I'm also glad someone else caught this logical disconnect.
Nothing you can do gets you salvation, so do this and you'll get salvation.

Huh?

Magus55

The Trinity is a hard concept to understand, even for Christians ( so even harder for atheists). Sin is a crime against God, and deserving of death. Humans can never, by their own merit - reach the level of God's holiness and become sinless. Because they can't be sinless, they will always have that death sentence on them. They are deserving of judgement by God, because sinning against Him, goes against His holiness, and his righteousness requires sin and those who commit it to be punished.

Now, since God loves us more than anything imaginable, He didn't want us to permanently be overcome by sin and have to face his judgement. But, no human was capable of meeting the standards of God's holiness, so God out of love, planned it so that He would come to Earth, as a human and be sacrificed at our hands. By doing so, Jesus ( God in human form), who was sinless and met the standards of God's holiness, could take our place and carry our sins with Him.

You are saved by Jesus' death and ressurection, because He conquered death ( the ultimate consequence of sin). Believing in Him, is a spiritual pardon because you accept his sacrifice as payment for your sins. You fully accept his gift of salvation. Jesus' death, conquered sin. By killing God's human body, all of humanities sins are carried on the cross and die with him ( talk about a heavy burden). But if you don't accept the gift and sacrifice that He did for you, you aren't spiritually reborn, which is why you can't be forgiven of your sins - because you still carry your sin with you, instead of giving it to Jesus and having it destroyed on the cross.

An analogy: You kill alot a people and are sentenced to death. The judge has ultimate authority and sovereignty over all law. He doesn't want to see you killed, so he offers you a pardon to get off death row. You can either accept the Pardon, and leave death row, or you can tear up the pardon and throw it the judges face, and await your judgement and sentence. God is the judge, Jesus is the pardon. All you have to do is accept the pardon and the jail cell is opened and you become free.

Now the only problem with the analogy is a judge wouldn't actually pardon a criminal because He doesn't have infinite love and mercy for the criminal, despite what He did.

In summary: God the Father HAS to hold you accountable for your sins. Sin is deserving of death because it goes against God's perfect holiness. You have to be judged by his own divine nature. God can't just let you get away with it, because his righteousness prevents it. They are Laws of divine nature that have been in place for all eternity. God didn't create those laws, He is the embodiment of them. God is righteousness and Holiness. For Him not to be 100% righteous or holy, means He isn't God.

So since by God's own divine nature, you have to be held accountable for your sins, God had another way for you to be saved of your sin and have Him still maintain his righteousness. That is for your sins to be destroyed with God's body. Jesus, being God - maintained His Holiness, and had the power to carry all sins with Him, thereby fulfilling the divine law of righteousness. Your debt to God the Father, was paid for by Him. He provided the pardon, to get you out of prison, because only He can do it ( just like only a Judge can do it).

I hope that made some sense. Tried to explain it the best I could. Bottom line is, the Trinity is a concept, alot like omniscience that the human mind just can't fully comprehend. (Try contemplating omniscience - think about being able to know every single detail of everything that ever was, is, or will be for all eternity. Try being able to know every humans, every single thought that have existed on this earth - all at once. Try being able to know the exact numbers of hairs on every persons head, or the amount of sand granuales on the earth. Its mind boggling and makes your head hurt - kinda like trying to imagine what not existing is like.)

Anyway, sorry for the long post - hope that answered you somewhat Mageth.

Demigawd

Magus, think a second about what you just wrote. If, for the sake of argument, God is the beginning and end as Christians are want to believe, then he's the one who created his own concept of righteousness. To say he can't go beyond his own nature is to basically say he's one hell of a stubborn bastard. If God didn't create those laws, then he himself has a creator. Which means he isn't all that and a bag of chips as Christians are want to believe.

Love your cognitive dissonance all you want, but there those of us who recognize the concepts you've mentioned as bullshit and treat them appropriately.

Magus55

Do i care about what you think of our concepts? No.

And i know exactly what i wrote. God didn't create the laws, He IS the law. Holiness and Righteousness, is who God is. It wasn't created, its part of Him. God has always been holy and righteous, for all of eternity. Just like you are a human, God is holy and righteous. I'm not talking about written laws. They are the nature of God's being. Nothing created them, they are Him.

Demigawd

"(O)ur concepts"? So you are a member of a Christian denomination. I'm happy you've accepted that.

So, basically you're saying that your concept of god doesn't include the concept of omnipotence as he has no ability or control over himself. And think about the nature of "holy and righteous" you claim this supposed creater of billions and billions of galaxies embodies. He sure loved the scent of burnt flesh (granted he supposedly sacrificed himself to himself to atone for our transgressions against himself, and that slacked his lust for sacrifice), and gets upset over people who wear clothes of combined materials, who eat shellfish, who bugger each other and/or animals, who got their yarbles mutilated (no doubt in one of his ordained holy wars), etc.

Your assertions are becoming more predictable and ludicrous as you type them. Keep up your posts because you're definitely serving as a poster boy as to why being a sceptic is a good idea.

Nowhere357

The bible falls before rational thought. Even most xians know it cannot be literal truth. So it comes down to interpretation.

Most interpretations seem to say that you must "accept" jesus, or go to hell. That is, there is no other way to heaven. A good god would not punish people for eternity.

They call this an act of love. I call it an act of evil. I oppose evil.

Magus55

No, i'm Christian, but not part of a Christian denomination ( unless you consider Messianic Judaism a Christian denomination).

Demigawd, Of course i believe God is omnipotent. Omnipotence does not mean you can defy that which is illogical. God can't make himself that which He is not. Thats like trying to make a 3 sided square. If its 3 sided, its not a square. If God makes himself unrighteous, then He isn't God, and if He isn't God, He can't make himself unrighteous.

Stop putting God into paradoxes that are illogical and universally impossible. Omnipotence is the power to do anything that doesn't defy God's own nature. If it defies God's nature, then it can't be done by its own definition.

Magus55

Why do you assume a good god would not punish people for eternity? Because you are trying to define a God so far beyond human comprehension that its rediculous to try and fit in him your little box of whats right and wrong. For God not to punish sinners, would defy his righteousness. He can't do that. He doesn't want to punish people but He has to by His own divinity. If He didn't, He wouldn't be righteous or just, and if He's not righteous or just, He's not God. Fortunately, He is also merciful, so there is a way out.

Demigawd

Magus, that's a circular argument.

I'm not the one putting a supposed god into categories of logic or whatever. You are. I'm the one criticizing the assertions you yourself are making. You know, trying to nudge you beyond the black-and-white assumptions of reality you are making.

BTW: What does the 55 at end of Magus signify? I know what a magus is, but the numerical significance isn't apparent.