Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 08-13-2003, 12:57 AM

I personally have no more fear about not existing in the year 3003 AD than I do about the fear of not existing at the time of Ghengis Khan.

Darth Dane · 08-13-2003, 01:02 AM

"...this non-existance with you(God) is better than all existance"

Excerpt from a poem from Rumi

DD - Love & Laughter

winstonjen · 08-13-2003, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
"...this non-existance with you(God) is better than all existance"

Excerpt from a poem from Rumi

Makes sense, because god doesn't exist.

Darth Dane · 08-13-2003, 01:22 AM

Yes, but Winstonjen, I believe Rumi experienced this state of being, while physically alive....he wrote about it

He called it God/Friend

DD - Love & Laughter

winstonjen · 08-13-2003, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Yes, but Winstonjen, I believe Rumi experienced this state of being, while physically alive....he wrote about it

He called it God/Friend

If he was referring to the Christian depiction of god, those two words would be oxymorons.

Darth Dane · 08-13-2003, 02:13 AM

I don't know what he referred to, the insertion of "(God)" in the poem was mine!

Although Rumi believed in God I cannot say for sure if thats what he meant, but it seems very likely.

He speaks beyond a denominated God, if you read more of his writings.

DD - Love & Laughter

Kenneth · 08-13-2003, 02:28 AM

It is not an irrational fear. In fact, to be an atheist, we really must fear death more than anything else in the world.

Death is not sleeping forever. Death is the end of living. Why I should point this obvious fact is because people keep forgetting it. If you think of death as nothing, then you do not really love life at all. Our generation puts it more bluntly, "You have not lived a life."

Ancient people were more subtle about it. They tell the story of Sisyphus. A man who is cursed to forever to roll a stone up the mountain, only to see it fall every night.

His crime: he loved life so much that he tricked Hades just to taste life one more time. A crime whose punishment he was willing to bear.

Again,death is an end to living. An end to the experience that can only be exprienced alive, not asleep. An end to the enjoyment of food, wine and women. (Not in that particular order that is.)

To tell me that it is so easy to part with all this. To tell me that it is so easy to substitute it with nothingness. To tell me all this is to tell me the story of people who have not lived a life. They just exist.

Do More than Just Exists!

Darth Dane · 08-13-2003, 03:04 AM

Indeed, do more than just exist.

How do we want to exist and how does life make us exist?

DD - Love & Laughter

andy_d · 08-13-2003, 03:08 AM

People do tend to get rather attatched to their lives though, don't they?

As DBT9522 said, it's the loss of something they think is important that people fear. Plus I think for many the unknown is deeply scary.

To many people, if you said, "i'm going to take your house away and you might not ever get it back" they would feel fear. So I don't think it's a difficult reaction to understand.

It may be misguided, but it's not hard to empathise with.

Heathen Dawn · 08-13-2003, 04:51 AM

Hi.

Emotional has been deactivated and given back his old username from atheist days. That's me.

When I think of that sleep from which there is no awakening, I'm scared stiff. Eternal sleep? No awakening at all? That scares me to my very bones. I don't know anything about my current sleep, except that it's been done, because I awake from it.

It is an irrational fear. Rationally I shouldn't be afraid of not feeling and not experiencing anything. But I fear it. I can't explain why.

There are periods I don't fear death at all, even if I think about it, and there are other periods I fear death terribly, spontaneously. On the surface of it, it looks like a purely psychological fear. However, from my experience, I don't have purely psychological fears; I have brain disorders. For a period of time, I had a different obsession which was as all-consuming as my obsession with death. After time and medications, that obsession passed away and was replaced by fear of death.

I came to realise that believing in life after death didn't relieve me of the death obsession. It should have been that I believed in life after death and that was that. But I kepted ranting about my fear of death all the time, even after I adopted the "security blanket" of belief. In other words, it's an OCD problem, and it's impossible for a mere adoption of belief to treat that. So I decided to stop "treating" myself, to come back to my former atheism, and to fight my fear in other ways.

I still fear death, but I'm not going to deceive myself anymore because of that. I'm really an atheist, I really don't believe in gods or afterlife. Make-believe is not the way to overcome a fear. It may work, but it's, shall we say, immoral. And in my case it didn't even work.

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08-13-2003, 12:57 AM	#11
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	I personally have no more fear about not existing in the year 3003 AD than I do about the fear of not existing at the time of Ghengis Khan.

08-13-2003, 01:02 AM	#12
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	"...this non-existance with you(God) is better than all existance" Excerpt from a poem from Rumi DD - Love & Laughter

08-13-2003, 01:22 AM	#14
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Yes, but Winstonjen, I believe Rumi experienced this state of being, while physically alive....he wrote about it He called it God/Friend DD - Love & Laughter

08-13-2003, 02:13 AM	#16
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	I don't know what he referred to, the insertion of "(God)" in the poem was mine! Although Rumi believed in God I cannot say for sure if thats what he meant, but it seems very likely. He speaks beyond a denominated God, if you read more of his writings. DD - Love & Laughter

08-13-2003, 02:28 AM	#17
Kenneth Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: PROC Posts: 206	It is not an irrational fear. In fact, to be an atheist, we really must fear death more than anything else in the world. Death is not sleeping forever. Death is the end of living. Why I should point this obvious fact is because people keep forgetting it. If you think of death as nothing, then you do not really love life at all. Our generation puts it more bluntly, "You have not lived a life." Ancient people were more subtle about it. They tell the story of Sisyphus. A man who is cursed to forever to roll a stone up the mountain, only to see it fall every night. His crime: he loved life so much that he tricked Hades just to taste life one more time. A crime whose punishment he was willing to bear. Again,death is an end to living. An end to the experience that can only be exprienced alive, not asleep. An end to the enjoyment of food, wine and women. (Not in that particular order that is.) To tell me that it is so easy to part with all this. To tell me that it is so easy to substitute it with nothingness. To tell me all this is to tell me the story of people who have not lived a life. They just exist. Do More than Just Exists!

08-13-2003, 03:04 AM	#18
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Indeed, do more than just exist. How do we want to exist and how does life make us exist? DD - Love & Laughter

08-13-2003, 03:08 AM	#19
andy_d Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: umop apisbn Posts: 568	People do tend to get rather attatched to their lives though, don't they? As DBT9522 said, it's the loss of something they think is important that people fear. Plus I think for many the unknown is deeply scary. To many people, if you said, "i'm going to take your house away and you might not ever get it back" they would feel fear. So I don't think it's a difficult reaction to understand. It may be misguided, but it's not hard to empathise with.

08-13-2003, 04:51 AM	#20
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Hi. Emotional has been deactivated and given back his old username from atheist days. That's me. When I think of that sleep from which there is no awakening, I'm scared stiff. Eternal sleep? No awakening at all? That scares me to my very bones. I don't know anything about my current sleep, except that it's been done, because I awake from it. It is an irrational fear. Rationally I shouldn't be afraid of not feeling and not experiencing anything. But I fear it. I can't explain why. There are periods I don't fear death at all, even if I think about it, and there are other periods I fear death terribly, spontaneously. On the surface of it, it looks like a purely psychological fear. However, from my experience, I don't have purely psychological fears; I have brain disorders. For a period of time, I had a different obsession which was as all-consuming as my obsession with death. After time and medications, that obsession passed away and was replaced by fear of death. I came to realise that believing in life after death didn't relieve me of the death obsession. It should have been that I believed in life after death and that was that. But I kepted ranting about my fear of death all the time, even after I adopted the "security blanket" of belief. In other words, it's an OCD problem, and it's impossible for a mere adoption of belief to treat that. So I decided to stop "treating" myself, to come back to my former atheism, and to fight my fear in other ways. I still fear death, but I'm not going to deceive myself anymore because of that. I'm really an atheist, I really don't believe in gods or afterlife. Make-believe is not the way to overcome a fear. It may work, but it's, shall we say, immoral. And in my case it didn't even work.

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