DRFseven

What makes you think it's wrong to infringe on others' rights? I'm not arguing; I'm trying to figure out where you get the information that doing so is wrong.

Guillaume

wrong topic

meritocrat

Of course it's wrong.

I have no right to kill or to steal. Don't those actions infringe on others' rights? There must be a reason why it's wrong to kill or steal.

What makes it 'right' to believe in a moral code determined by a being that may or may not exist?

Violent Messiah

Originally posted by DRFseven
What makes you think it's wrong to infringe on others' rights? I'm not arguing; I'm trying to figure out where you get the information that doing so is wrong.
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Of course it's wrong.

I have no right to kill or to steal. Don't those actions infringe on others' rights? There must be a reason why it's wrong to kill or steal.


You didn't answer DRFseven's question. You just stated your ideas again that made DRF ask his question in the first place. I think i'm just curios too to know your answer.

And those rights you are talking about - it is based on what? The right to live, own properties...and others...they are based on what? What makes you say that those must not be violated?

Also, what if my rights contradict with others' rights? How then do we determine which right is supreme and must defeat all other rights opposed against it?

meritocrat

What makes you say that should not be adhered to? Can I steal your car or TV, since you seem it acceptable to do so? UNlike you I don't need a God to tell me what's right or wrong. Hasn't anybody told you why it's immoral to steal? Ever wondered WHY that is the case?
That's a non-sequitur.

I believe in freedom. Ergo, ALL freedoms which conflict in others freedoms cannot be accepted.

DRFseven

Why is it "of course" wrong to kill or steal. How do you know that? Why is it wrong to infringe on others' rights?

You say there must be a reason; don't you have one? If you don't have one, how do you know it's wrong?

meritocrat

Do you have a reason to think it's right to steal? Or only becasue God says so in the Bible?

DRFseven

I don't think it's right to steal. I'm an atheist.

Violent Messiah

Your first statement:

I didn't say nor imply that they should not be adhered to because you haven't even clearly definedthe basis of what "they" is? "They" meaning the rights you are talking about....life, own properties....etc....this is my question...

Your second statement:

I did not imply that you can steal my car nor did I say that it is acceptable. I'm just questioning your grounds for calling something as a "RIGHT" that humans must possess and should not be violated.

Your third statement:

Then, again back to my statement....HOW do you formulate what is right and what is wrong. Of course you'll answer - If it doesn't violate other's rights...which then circles back to my question of your basis for labelling as such.

Nope. Defining morality, ethics or rights by human standards will be relative. There won't be an absolute rule; ultimately, granting freedom to do whatever you please as long as you view it "moral". This is the problem I have with atheism.

This one is. At some point your freedom will inevitably contradict others freedom...just like my previous statement that human rights, the one you are labelling as such, will contradict each other. What then will you accept as the one true freedom?

AdamWho

There is no "One True Freedom". Freedom is the principle of voluntary action vs. physical coercion or compulsion. Freedom from coercion is handled (theoretically) by the state since they are supposed to have a monopoly on power everything else is a decision by you based on your values. Your actions are guided (hopefully) by your personal moral code.

Almost all human activity "intrudes" on other persons "freedoms". How you handle this "intrusion" depends on your values.

A simple example: "I want to change lanes in my car but this guy won't let me" vs. "I don't want to get in an accident".
You weigh these values and (usually) decide that safety and prudence are the best course of action. It really isn’t an issue of some ultimate freedom.