ax

I was thinking. If the bible is literal and "God" does exist, he knows all. Beginning and end.
And he had a "salvation plan" from the beginning, we all have purpose. We all have a role to play.
Satan's purpose was to rebel and be an adversary. The prophet's in the old testiment were to pave that way for jesus. We all play our part. We all do what we are meant to do. Now, if this is true, it eliminates Free will (undetermined choice). And the whole "fair" thing is thrown out the window.
Now, am I missing some other factor, or am I correct in my presumptions?

seebs

The free will/foreknowledge debate is old, and I find it unpersuasive. I believe that foreknowledge is like any other knowledge; it is determined by the events, not the other way around. To say "you are not free to do anything other than what it is known you will do" is no different from saying "you are not free to have done anything other than what it is known you already did"; it's just post hoc that makes us *feel* like it ought to matter. In either case, it's pure tautology; the knowledge follows from the event, so of COURSE they're the same.

ax

All this considered, do you view us as part of a story? We play our roles? Wether it truely is "fee" will or not, is besides the point.

schu

Freedom Evolves by Daniel C. Dennett. Viking, New York. 2003 Cloth. 347 pp.
$24.95. ISBN: 0-670-03186-0.


Here is a new book on the subject.




If "knowledge" follows the event then knowing things that haven't happened is impossible. We don't have "knowledge" of future events. The only being who it is claimed to have this kind of knowledge is a supernatural made up sky daddy. Your own assertion shows the improbability of such a being existing.

Volker.Doormann

The Hebrew Torah is not literal. The stories told in the Pentateuch are tales and parables are symbols of the inner consciousness of men, because these spiritual ‘things’ are not to perceive by the outer physical senses; they are only symbolized as persons inclusive a ‘personal’ (‘speaking’) God.

There is no social meaning for them, who are free from that social claims. Only religious slaves and humans, who are in doubt of ethical actions, can read the secular social rules of the bible to adjust their own ethical system or not.

There is ever a freedom on acting, but there is never a freedom from the effects of the own actions, because of the law of causality. This means, that a real freedom from effects are only to realize, if there are no actions anymore causing effects. This is a very individual process; each one has to find out this by his own awareness.

That, what is claimed as a salvation plan, is the freedom to choose between a mortal physical life and an immortal spiritual being. As no one can die for an other being, no one can be conscious for an other being. Each salvation plan hurts the law of causality.

Volker

mike_decock

I look at it this way:

If God created the universe and has perfect foreknowledge, then He chose which "free will" choices we would make.

-Mike...

Magus55

And there is where the human mind fails. You assume that God's foreknowledge directly affects the choices we make, but how do you know that without being God? God told us He gave us Free will. His foreknowledge, works independently of our choices. We still can make the choice, God just sees the choices we make played out because He isn't bound by time. He sees the past, present, and future as one unit. And as Iv'e said before, omniscience is probably the hardest concept of God for humans to comprehend. We just don't have the capacity, wisdom or intellect to understand it completely. We can only go by what God has offered us.

Lets say you have two options: give a homeless man money, or shoot him. Now, God knows which of those 2 choices you will choose. Do you know which choice you will make before you actually make it? No of course not, otherwise you would automatically pick one without every considering the second. Your choices work independently of God's knowledge, because you don't know what you are gonna choose. God doesn't see what you are gonna choose, and that foresight, makes you choose something you don't want to. You make the ultimate choice- God just sees that ultimate choice that you make played out because time is meaningless to Him.

Demigawd

No, a book written and revised by various committies of men over hundreds of years asserts that a supposed supreme being gave us an extremely vague thing termed free will. That's where your stance begins and ends.

That's a pretty lame analogy. How about the option of ignoring the homeless man? How about helping build a homeless shelter/soup kitchen? How about taking the homeless man into your home and helping him turn his life around?

Fundamental theists obfuscate issues by reducing it down to binary outcomes: good versus evil, god versus satan, creation versus evolution, etc. Reality can never be understood if you hang on to thinking in black-and-white terms. You'll just be parrotting previous generations' superstitions.

mike_decock

Magus, your assumption about what I believe is completely wrong. I never said that foreknowledge would affect the choices we make. Foreknowledge means that the free will choices we make were already chosen.

Where does it say this?

-Mike...

Magus55

Either way, your understanding of foreknowledge is wrong in relation to God. God already knows the choices you will make, you don't. God's knowledge is independent of yours. He sees what you have chosen - but that doesn't mean He chose it, it means you chose it. You had the choice to make it, God just knows the final result ahead of time, because His knowledge isn't bound by time like ours is.