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Old 07-16-2003, 07:04 AM   #31
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For a long time I didn’t. Then when I believed it was just an old document of a people, I believed any errors were human caused. When I accepted Jesus as my Saviour, I began to read with the understanding of the Holy Spirit. I read the bible in a way you cannot. There is not other way to put it.
So, if you had accepted Muhammad as your Saviour, would you then have understood the Koran with the aid of the Holy Spirit?
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Old 07-16-2003, 07:10 AM   #32
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So, if you had accepted Muhammad as your Saviour, would you then have understood the Koran with the aid of the Holy Spirit?
Islam has no holy spirit. And Muhammed wasn't a messiah, he was supposedly just a prophet. There is no saviour in Islam. Allah decides who he wants to condemn and who he doesn't.
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Old 07-16-2003, 07:35 AM   #33
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Originally posted by EstherRose
I accepted the bible as the word of God after I accepted Jesus as my Saviour. When I prayed to God in submissiveness and accepted Jesus as His Son and my Saviour, there was a real change in me, a change that can only be described as the Holy Spirit. Now that I am a Christian, and the Holy Spirit is with me when I read the Bible, I can understand things now that I could not before.


I'm sure that if you had accepted Allah as Saviour (and yes, contrary to what Magus says, Allah does describe Himself as Saviour!), you would read the Qur'an with a "change of mind", just like River does.

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I realize that seems silly to many of you, and you think I must be some brainwashed deluded person, but I’m not.


I wouldn't say you are brainwashed or deluded. I'd just say you haven't done enough examining.

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I have found the Bible to be the inspired word of God whereas the Koran has nothing to with the word of God.


The Bible says it's the Word of God, and the Qur'an says it's the Word of God. Both cannot be right. But you ought to examine them impartially, for both Christianity and Islam posit an eternal hell for unbelievers. I for my part disbelieve them both.

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The Koran is the work of a man who believed himself to be possessed by demons. The Koran is riddled with inconsistencies that cannot be explained away by conventions of speech or anything else. It consisted of scraps of words that someone other than Mohammed put together years later and claimed was from him. It is a document with an impersonal capricious Allah and no hope for mankind.


Actually the Qur'an is believed to be the work of multiple hands. Researchers have a great dispute about who Muhammad was, and the traditional view that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an is widely disregarded in modern critical research. Just as the Bible is the work of multiple hands, and not of Moses alone.

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Since I have many muslim friends, I have spent quite a bit of time getting to understand the Koran. The more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that it is a false document, not the word of God. I do not view this just through my Christian blinders. I view it as an intelligent thinking adult.
You do well. If only you did the same for the Bible. Here is an e-mail I posted to an atheist who converted to Christianity, in an attempt to persuade him to leave the religion:

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Hello <name>.

So you have decided upon Christianity. Not a bad decision if it gives you comfort, but it could be a bad decision if you start believing in the fundamentalist message that all non-Christians burn in hell for eternity. That's a cruel teaching, a diabolical teaching, a satanic teaching. I really hope you have not taken Christianity to such a degree that you believe this heartless teaching. They say it is God's way of being both just and merciful: God gets to punish sinners, so He is just, and also to let them off the hook if they accept Jesus, so He is merciful. Actually He ends up being neither: the mass murderer who accepts Jesus gets off entirely scott-free, and the feeder of the hungry goes to eternal torture just because he did not accept Jesus. So that there is neither mercy nor justice in this system. Thus much for how I regard orthodox Christian theology.

You have decided that the Bible is true. I have read the book in the original Hebrew, and it contradicts what we know about the world from the very first verse.

Genesis 1 says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. By stringing together the genealogies of Genesis you get an age of 6000 years for the earth. This is false: the earth is 4.5 billion years old.

Genesis 1 says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, but this is false: the earth was not present from the beginning. In the beginning, when God created the universe 15 billion years ago (the Big Bang), there was neither earth nor sun. They coalesced from clouds of nebular gas about 4.5 billion years ago.

Genesis 1 says God created a firmament to separate between the waters above and the waters below. What is the firmament? In Hebrew raqiya', which means a layer of beaten metal. The firmament is a solid roof above our heads protecting us from the waters above it. The firmament has windows, which were opened in Noah's day to let the flood waters down. Needless to say, all this is an error: we send shuttles high above, to space, and they never crash into a solid firmament. The Bible is in error.

Genesis 1 says God created lights to rule the day and night: a greater light (the sun) to rule the day, and a lesser light (the moon) to rule the night, and the stars as an afterthought, as tiny decorative lights stuck onto the solid firmament. There are a few errors here: the sun is a light, yes, but it is not so great compared to other stars (such as Rigel or Betelgeuse); the moon is not a light at all, but reflects sunlight; and the stars are distant suns, not tiny dots of light.

And finally, Genesis 1 neglects to mention how God created living beings: the process of evolution. This is a process of descent with modification, of random mutations combined with non-random natural selection to produce novelty. Genesis 1 puts mankind at the pinnacle of creation, while in fact mankind shares common descent with all other living beings and is closely related to the ape species.

Now you see that the Bible tells us untruths about God's creation. Shall we attribute such untruths to God's authorship? By no means! It was ignorant men that wrote those things. We have come to the truth not by accepting the guesswork of ignorant men, but by investigating the universe scientifically.

We must equally be chary, then, of accepting what the Bible says about God. The men who wrote the Bible infused their own ideas about God's creation; is it not then possible that they infused their own ideas about God as well? Is it not possible that God is totally different than the one whom the Bible describes?

I believe God created the universe 15 billion years ago, setting the whole host of natural laws and material properties sufficient for subsequent evolution of stars, planets and living organisms. He created a fully-gifted creation, capable of self-organisation. I believe God is self-sufficient and requires no praise nor worship. All that is required is a life of love and kindliness towards other beings, which prepares the self for the coming life after death.

As for Jesus, I don't think he was just a myth. He was a revolutionary teacher who was executed for opposing the rabbinical establishment of his day. He was a charismatic leader, and his followers wove a fabric of myths around him after his execution.

Note that the Hebrew Bible (the OT to Christians) says:

Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood-I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people (Leviticus 17:10)

and also:

Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it (Leviticus 19:26)

but Jesus says in the Last Supper:

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him (John 6:51-56)

Jesus therefore did not fulfill Yahweh's Law, he contradicted it, he annulled it. The eating of human flesh and drinking of blood is forbidden in Yahweh's law, as you can see in the quotes from Leviticus. Where did the idea of eating God's flesh and drinking His blood come from? From the local pagan myths. Pagans of the day believed that the risen godman-saviour, such as Mithras or Attis or Dionysus, was to be worshipped by having a symbolic feast of bread and wine. This, and not Yahweh's law, is the basis for much Christian theology.

I hope you take all these problems into consideration. They are just a selection from the many reasons why I don't accept Christianity (or even Judaism).
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Old 07-16-2003, 10:36 AM   #34
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Originally posted by EstherRose
For a long time I didn’t. Then when I believed it was just an old document of a people, I believed any errors were human caused. When I accepted Jesus as my Saviour, I began to read with the understanding of the Holy Spirit. I read the bible in a way you cannot. There is not other way to put it.


(At the risk of piling on) how are you able to distinguish this feeling of yours that the Holy Spirit is in you, helping you read the bibile, from self-delusion? How do you know that it is not just all in your head?

What if it were just all in your head? How could you know that? If you were wrong about your faith, would you want to know it? If so, what experiments could you perform that would enable you to tell if the faith was "real", or just "all in your head?"

(I'm just trying to understand how faith works, or rather, how people can allow themselves to have faith. I think I've about come to the conclusion that generally, the brains of humans (and I don't exclude my own brain, though I think it works better than average) are just really no damn good, for the most part. Very very unreliable.)
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Old 07-16-2003, 10:58 AM   #35
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When I accepted Jesus as my Saviour, I began to read with the understanding of the Holy Spirit.
Christians manage to read the same Bible "with the understanding of the Holy Spirit" and reach vastly differing and even mutually exclusive conclusions about key issues of their faith. That isn't a terribly good advertisement for the Bible as Divine revelation.
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Old 07-16-2003, 12:49 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Bree
So what kind of "understanding" did the Holy Spirit give you? I have heard Christians say that the Holy Spirit guides them over the parts of the Bible that are either A) false or B) no longer relevent. Is this what you are saying?
The Spirit guides us to understanding, if we listen to it. There is nothing false in the bible. But at times it is written in ambiguous ways. The Spirit, among many other things He does, guides us in the deeper meanings of the bible.

It is hard to explain, but there is a significant difference. It was literally like blinders had come off.

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Christians manage to read the same Bible "with the understanding of the Holy Spirit" and reach vastly differing and even mutually exclusive conclusions about key issues of their faith. That isn't a terribly good advertisement for the Bible as Divine revelation.
Not all who say they are Christians are true Christians. It is believed that on some matters, the Spirit tells us what we as individuals need for our spiritual growth, not necessarily what is of crucial doctrinal importance.

It is difficult to explain the Holy Spirit. He is something I had difficulty understanding for many years, even though I experience Him every day. He lives in us, as promised by Jesus, and connects us to God. He tells us how to live, if we listen. Many people tune Him out.

For the person who made the statement about the koran and the Holy Spirit, the koran denies such a being, so no I would never read the koran with the Holy Spirit if I were islamic. As a Christian, I can read the koran with the Holy Spirit and He points out crucial problems in it.

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How are you able to distinguish this feeling of yours that the Holy Spirit is in you, helping you read the bibile, from self-delusion? How do you know that it is not just all in your head?
The Spirit is different. I know what is from Him and what isn't. I'm sorry that this sounds vague, it just is really hard to understand. He is a quiet voice that does not relent.

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If you were wrong about your faith, would you want to know it? If so, what experiments could you perform that would enable you to tell if the faith was "real", or just "all in your head?"
Yes I would want to know it. As far as experiments, I don't really need to perform any. After 14 years as a born again Christian, I've seen God's handiwork in my life enough to know He is real. I've experienced the Holy Spirit enough to know He is real without needing to do any experiments. For example the Spirit or God saved my life once. When I faced a split second decision that meant life or death in an impending car accident, a loud Voice told me exactly what to do. He told me to drive onto the shoulder even though I did not even know if it was safe to do so or if it was a cliff edge. My life was spared that night by doing exactly what He ordered.

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( the brains of humans (and I don't exclude my own brain, ) are just really no damn good, for the most part. Very very unreliable.)
Yes you got that right. The bible also tells us not to rely on traditions, but to study the word of God and what it tells us.

Perhaps this will help you to understand what the Holy Spirit is to Christians.

Matthew 10
19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

John 3
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

John 14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Acts 2
3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.


Before anyone says anything, the Spirit gives us gifts as we need them. We do not necessarily receive every gift, only when He sees the need for them. I have not spoken in tongues, nor do I expect to do so.

A great description of the Holy Spirit and what He does can be found in Romans 8 which I have not pasted because of its length.

1 Corinthians 2
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Galatians 5
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Hebrews 2:4
4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

1 John 3
24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 4
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
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Old 07-16-2003, 01:18 PM   #37
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Originally posted by EstherRose


It is a document based on falsehoods. For example, it claims the Trinity of the Christians is God, Jesus and Mary. Whether or not you believe in Christianity, you know what the Trinity is supposed to be. I’m pretty sure Allah would not have made such a blunderous error. Many of the surahs were lost when those who memorized them were killed. If God went to such effort to bring them down to earth, then he would have provided for their security. Even then, there were initially 25 variants of the Koran until the time of caliph Uthman who burned 24 variants and produced the final authorized version. That does not seem like the work of Allah to me. The hadith and sunnah are equally false. Since they are almost as important to muslims as the Koran, you all should evaluate those documents. They are legalistic and often “unusual” (to put it kindly).

Since I have many muslim friends, I have spent quite a bit of time getting to understand the Koran. The more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that it is a false document, not the word of God. I do not view this just through my Christian blinders. I view it as an intelligent thinking adult.

1) This addresses your silly claim about the Islamic understanding of Trinity.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../marytrin.html



2) I have already addressed you before on the topic of variants of Qur'an. Do you want me to embarrass you once again?



3)If I were your muslim friend, I would be rather suspicious of having a friend who so aggressively detests my belief system and everything I stand for.

-River
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Old 07-16-2003, 02:20 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Magus55
Islam has no holy spirit. And Muhammed wasn't a messiah, he was supposedly just a prophet. There is no saviour in Islam. Allah decides who he wants to condemn and who he doesn't.
How is that different from the bible? It clearly states that people are predestined for either heaven or hell.
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Old 07-16-2003, 02:30 PM   #39
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Originally posted by EstherRose
Yes I would want to know it. As far as experiments, I don't really need to perform any. After 14 years as a born again Christian, I've seen God's handiwork in my life enough to know He is real. I've experienced the Holy Spirit enough to know He is real without needing to do any experiments. For example the Spirit or God saved my life once. When I faced a split second decision that meant life or death in an impending car accident, a loud Voice told me exactly what to do. He told me to drive onto the shoulder even though I did not even know if it was safe to do so or if it was a cliff edge. My life was spared that night by doing exactly what He ordered.
Perhaps god wanted to bring you to heaven, but you obeyed the devil, hence losing that chance.

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Not all who say they are Christians are true Christians. It is believed that on some matters, the Spirit tells us what we as individuals need for our spiritual growth, not necessarily what is of crucial doctrinal importance.
The 'untrue Christians' would say much the same about you. What makes you right?

Do you have anything to say that we haven't heard before?
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Old 07-16-2003, 02:59 PM   #40
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Once again, conveniently ignored:

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What one person wants to believe is a personal matter; however, who the hell has the right to denigrate another person's religion whilst holding their religion over them?!
I suppose one has the right to be a hypocrite.

--J.D.
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