Mageth

Spurly says:

No. God does not deny free will or punish free will. What he condemns are people who use their free will to choose not to enter a relationship of love with him.

and then says:

I don't understand how one can say that God is opposed to Free Will.

Umm, you just did.

spurly

Nope. You are misquoting me. God is not opposed to Free Will. It is the only way for us to truly enter a relationship of love with him. Anything else would be a forced love.

Again, he is not opposed to free will. However, he will let our Free Will run it's natural course, even if it means his heart is broken forever as some people are separated from his love.

Kevin

Mageth

Nope. You are misquoting me.

Cut'n pasted right from your post, spurly.

God is not opposed to Free Will

If he's not opposed to free will, then why would he condemn us for exercising it as we choose?

I could also point out that you said:

God does not deny free will or punish free will.

followed immediately by:

What he condemns are people who use their free will to choose...

Now, you may not be able to see the glaring contradiction there, but I damn sure can.

Biff the unclean

See Kevin, this is what I'm talking about. This is misanthropic. This is you being misanthropic and claiming it is some God being "loving."
Can it be possible that you have no conception of how hateful what you are writing is?

This is why the "secular world" rejects staunch and fervent Christians, in case you ever wondered. This philosophy is just plain "not nice."
:banghead:

spurly

Mageth,

It's kind of like this. God does not punish the ability to choose. He does not punish being tempted to make a choice. Neither does he reward us simply because he has given us the abilitiy to choose. The ability to choose is woven into creation.

What he rewards or punishes is how we use the free will he has given us. There is a BIG, BIG, BIG difference in these two concepts.

An example? We have the choose to enter a relationship of love with him, or walk away from that relationship. He doesn't reward or punish us because we have that choice. As a matter of fact, he gave us the ability to make such a choice. What he rewards or punishes is the choice we make.

I don't know how I could explain this any clearer.

Kevin

Mageth

God does not punish the ability to choose [i.e., free will]...he...punishes... the choice we make.

The contradictions continue. If free will is indeed a good gift that god gives us, and he thereafter punishes us for using that good gift to actually make a choice, then he's punishing us for using our "good" free will that he gave us so that we would have the ability to choose.

I don't know how I could explain this any clearer.

Oh, I understand what you're saying. It's you that's having the problem.

Biff the unclean

He doesn't reward or punish us because we have that choice. As a matter of fact, he gave us the ability to make such a choice. What he rewards or punishes is the choice we make.

Now you are starting to scare me. Can you possibly understand how disgusting what you are writing is?

I take a gun and stick it between your eyes and say give me your money or I'll blow your brains out.
There you have the free will you are talking about. I haven't taken away your free will with my gun. In fact I have given you the opportunity to exercise your free will by giving you a choice. I'm not going to punish you for choosing, I've even asked you to choose. The only innsy weensy little thing that I'll punish you for is making a choice that I don't approve of. But that's okay, I want you to enter into a relationship with me. It's a relationship based on love. You give me all your money as a sign of your love and I shall return this love by not killing you. If you make the decision with your free will of not loving me you are a dead man.

You have reduced God to a hoodlum. And since you have made it painfully clear that God is nothing more than your own projections I think you should give close examination to your own character before somebody gets hurt.

Jamie_L

Yes, but what part puts a wall between these men and God? The choice or the results. Consider two other alternatives: a pilot who chooses to ram his plan into the trade towers but screws it up and ditches his plane in the Hudson. And: a pilot who has a siezure and runs his plane into the towers. Which man is unworthy in God's eyes. Clearly, it is the choice, not the results that cause a person not to have a relationship with God.

No. You would still be making the choice, and the choice would still have a negative consequence - the most important negative consequence, from a Christian perspective: the choice would deny a loving relationship between you and God. Nobody has to die or get hurt for that to still be true.

No, God would be saying, "You have the Free Will to make this choice, but I will not allow anyone else to be hurt by it, and I will not allow your choice to rob others of their choice to develop a loving relationship with me in this life. If you make this choice, however, you will deny me and will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

It seems to me that all over the Bible, there are implications that what happens in this world is not really important. What is important is just that we choose to love God. All other choices are secondary, or are indirectly choices about loving God. That's the free will that counts. If God prevented people from getting hurt by the free will of others, it would not prevent anyone from chosing whether or not to love God.

Jamie

winstonjen

And the difference is...?

So he WANTS evil to exist, so that in his great wisdom and love, he can sell us the cure and make us all better again. How is that 'loving'? At least most evil in this world does not put on a facade. Your 'god' does.