ps418

Ladyshea,

You can post abstracts all you like. There's no copyright problem with that. If there were, I'd have been sent many angry letters frm many abngry lawyers by know.

Also, I have read some studies that use finger-length ratios as a marker for prenatal androgen exposure. I think the ratio Im thinking of is the 2d/4d ratio. 2d is the index finger, and 4d is the one next to your pinky. IIRC, the 2d/4d ratio is usually ~1 in women, but usually less than 1 in men. One finding I remember --dont know if it has been replicated-- is that the ratio tended to be smaller, i.e. more like the male average, in self-identified "butch" lesbians than in self-identified "femme" lesbians.

Patrick

theyeti

Yes, absolutely it is.

The relevant question is, is it biochemical due to prenatal or childhood environmental influences? Or is it biochemical due to the influence of specific gene alleles? Or is it a combination of the two? It's almost certainly the third choice, though no one can yet tease out the way in which certain gene alleles are being affected by the environment to cause homosexuality. Either way, it's pretty clear that it's not a matter of "choice" in the sense that there's a great deal of conscious control over one's sexual orientation. Personally, I don't see that it makes a difference for moral purposes.

theyeti

karl_logue

All very erudite responses thus far. I took a college psychology course in Homosexuality just last fall. It was a great course, but difficult. The most interesting thing to me was the definition of three aspects to sexuality: Identity, Behavior, Desire. Those are probably obvious, but I'll define them anyway:

Identity: I am gay. I may not have had gay sex, nor do I want to have gay sex, but I'm declaring to the world that I identify myself as being gay.

Behavior: I have sex with members of my own sex. but I'm definitely NOT gay! I don't really like it though.

Desire: I'm married man with 2 children. I'm not gay, but I don't really enjoy having sex with my wife, either. I fantasize about having sex with other men.

It is these three aspects of sexuality that make it ludicrous for governmental agencies to think they can legislate anything against homosexuals. Mostly, they are legislating (at least up until the Supreme Court decision last week!) against a person's identity, but not their behavior or desire. Those are the two invisible aspects of sexuality.

The bulk of evidence thus far indicates that there is a genetic predisposition, but that the penetrance of that marker is weak. Penetrance means that the gene is present, but not necessarily expressed. For instance, you may have a genetic predisposition to heart disease, but that doesn't guarantee that you'll ever experience it. Same thing with sexuality. The finger length studies (2d/4d) ratios showed very strong correlations for lesbians, but very weak correlations for men. However, it did seem to support the androgen theories. In further support of androgen theories, a study of the occurrence of sexuality in later born sons showed that the likelihood of homosexuality rose significantly. The hypothesis here is that the woman's body seems to remember how many male children she's had, and the level of androgen present during fetal development decreases with each child.

Most recently, a series of tests were conducted on gender-linked basic skills (i.e. men are better at dead-reckoning, women are better a multi-tasking). What was found is that gay men are good at the tasks that straight women are good at, and lesbians are good at the tasks that straight men are good at.

What all of these studies do indicate (I would even venture so far as to say "prove conclusively") is that sexuality is decidedly not chosen by the individual, but it is simply a part of their being. On another note, one has to question just exactly what these studies are measuring: the person's identity, behavior or desire? I heard it put amusingly by my psychology professor: They didn't find the gene for homosexuality, they found the gene for "coming out!"

That said, it's interesting that ex-homosexual groups like "Exodus" exist at all. With the preponderance of scientific studies and statistical analysis, it becomes clear why the American Psychological Association removed homosexuality from the DSM back in the 70's. In reality, all the "ex-homosexual" groups are only changing their members' "identity", but not their behavior or desire.

From a strictly personal perspective, though, those who are gay tended to experience desire, then behavior, and finally identity. I have known those who do not fill all three aspects, but generally speaking, there is a clear progression. I would also argue that those who are homosexual in less than all three aspects of their sexuality are experiencing some denial, depression, or more severe psychosis. (BTW, I'm not implying that those who identify as homosexual are 100% homosexual, just as the Kinsey studies back in the 50's indicated there is a continuum of sexuality.)

That's my two bits worth...

Shadow Wraith

Here's a link someone gave me going over the genetic component for homosexuality. It makes give a comparison between it and the component for left-handedness.

http://members.aol.com/gaygene/pages/traittab.htm

luvluv

This question might get us moved to the morals section, but I gotta ask.

If the cause of homosexuality could be perfectly designated, and perfectly "cured" before birth, should it be done?

Would you do it for your children?

Jeremy Pallant

Yes. As a father I would want what's best for them. In the current social environment, particularly in the United States, being openly homosexual is not "what is best for them."

Doubting Didymus

Neither is being black. Would you cure that, if you could?

Wounded King

I remember a short story on this topic by Greg Egan in his 'Luminous' collection.

It suggested that if maternal stress factors, cortisol in the story, had an environmental effect on the sexuality of an embryo then there might be some way of blocking the effect.

Roland98

That's very interesting, and I hadn't heard that before. My husband and I both have gay uncles...and they are both born late in the family (mine 4th out of 4 kids; his 5th out of 7 kids). Are there any hypotheses on how the body might "remember," or how androgen levels might decrease?

Might have to do some pubmed searching--unless you'd happen to have a ref?

Wounded King