emotional

EstherRose (and Magus, if possible), consider this scenario:

Satan wants as many souls as possible in hell, because he hates Allah and His creation, human beings. Satan knows that the best way to get people to hell is by getting them to disbelieve and disobey Allah's Word in the Qur'an. So what does Satan do? His usual "angel of light" trick: he masquerades as the "holy spirit", convincing people that the Christian Bible - which is the way to hell - is true.

Aren't you afraid of hell? Or if you don't believe this scenario, don't you agree that, with just a reversal of words (eg putting "God" instead of "Allah", "Bible" instead of "Qur'an"), you get the situation you believe in? Haven't you ever stopped to consider your reason for rejecting the Qur'an? You believe Satan causes Muslims to reject the Bible; may it have occured to you that Satan causes Christians to reject the Qur'an?

If you are wrong about this, a fiery eternity awaits you. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about Allah and His last prophet Muhammad.

Milton

First of all, did they tell you that this was the filter they applied? If yes, then I agree, they were wrong in doing it that way. If not, then you have just created a strawman.

Secondly, do you think that that is the same way all Christians look at it? Or just these two you mention above? If you think that it is the way all Christians look at it, then you are wrong. I have studied the Qu'ran, not entirely, but enough to make a decision on it, and I have also read some extra-Qu'ranical Muslim writings. There was a point at which I almost became a Muslim, but due to its own insitence on the reliability of the Bible, I was turned away from that religion.

My filter?

#1, I was questioning the existence of God. At one point, I said to myself that there was none, because of the confusion between the religions. Then I said, if He exists, then I can't know for sure where He is, so what is the point. But after longer studies of both the Bible and the Qu'ran, I realized that the relationship between these two books was more than what I had previously thought.

#2, I was also questioning Christianity, as the religion of God, if He truly existed. I am a non-trinitarian, and all the claims by trinitarians had me leaning more towards the Muslim thought, because it seemed to me that it would have been appropriate for God to send a prophet to guide the people, yet again. But after careful consideration of all the other factors involved in this claim, I concluded it was not correct. I also believe that the law has not been abolished, except the laws of sacrifice, and the execution of sinners at the hands of sinners. There may be a few others that could be nullified, but these are the ones right off the top of my head. In any case, I don't believe you just say "I believe", and bam! you are saved. I believe Salvation is a long process, that until you die, you are not sure where you will end up.

#3? I don't think I had any other things in mind. The above were the main ones, and I was able to resolve them.

Why was I not looking for the other miraculous stories? I was not looking for miracles as my sign. I did not know what I was looking for. I just started studying, and it just happened.

River

HOLD UP. The Qur'an does not mention the Bible or its reliability. The Qur'an mentions a Scripture called " Injeel" . The Bible is a derivative product of this Pristine Scripture ( The Injeel). Injeel is usually translated as " the Gospel" in singular tense. Not plural, like Christianity's 4 Gospel (s). So , does the Injeel exist today? Probably not . However, some have theorized that the Injeel is the " Aramaic Matthew" or " Gospel of Holy Twelve/Gospel of Perfect Life" or the Q. Jesus's Injeel was probably channeled directly through Jesus by G-d rather than by ArchAngel intermediary Gabriel. This might be true, because the Qur'an calls Jesus " the Spirit of G-d".

This is not a reason to lose faith in Islam.

Milton

Actually, EstherRose is right about that. It does not matter what Muslims today argue about. What the Qu'ran states is what is in discussion.

There is such passage that puts Mary, maybe not clearly stated, but equal to Jesus, as the Trinity or Tetrinity.

(Sura 5.116) And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Any way you want to put it, Jesus and Mary would be held equal. And if Jesus is equal to Mary, then that either puts Mary in the Trinity, or it creates yet a fourth member of the Divine Beings. (Hence, I use Tetrinity.)

Sure, Muslims today know that the Trinity is claimed to be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But that is expected, since this is well known around the world. The Qu'ran, however, is wrong about this.

Maybe EstherRose doesn't have the correct information, but the fact is that the Qu'ran existed in more than one form. A good website to find about this information is www.light-of-life.com.

I have Muslim friends. I have let them know that I believe their religion if false. But I don't think their religion should get in the way of me treating them like humans, with love and respect of whatever their choices are. I would like to have the opportunity to teach them about my religion, but I won't try to force it upon them.

River

The Filter



"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them [17:36 Holy Qur'an]

Milton

Yea, the Bible itself does not mention the Bible. Is that all you can offer?

River

-Milton


The Qur'an does not use the word Trinity. However, it states that many Christians, hold Jesus and Mary as G-ds in insult of God or Allah. Catholism , the largest branch of Christianity with more than 800 million followers do hold Mary as an object of Divine worship. I know Christians will insist that Mary is not worshipped and will employ semantic gymnastics . But the truth is they do pray to her to some degree ( i.e " Hail Mary"). And they do portray her in statue form similar to Jesus.-River

Here is what George Sale has to say



George Sale in the preliminary discourse to his translation of The Koran writes:

But, to be more particular as to the nation we are now writing of, Arabia was of old famous for heresies; which might be in some measure attributed to the liberty and independency of the tribes. Some of the Christians of that nation believed the soul died with the body, and was to be raised again with it at the last day: these Origen is said to have convinced. Among the Arabs it was that the heresies of Ebion, Beryllus, and the Nazareans, and also that of the Collyridians, were broached, or at least propagated; the latter introduced the Virgin Mary for God, or worshipped her as such offering her a sort of twisted cake called collyris, whence the sect had its name.

This notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was also believed by some at the Council of Nice, who said there were two gods besides the Father viz. Christ and the virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the popish superstition in calling her the complement of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect without her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous, and gave a handle to Mohammed to attack the Trinity itself.[3]

Commenting on verse 4:171, George Sale says:

Namely, God, Jesus and Mary. For the eastern writers mention a sect of Christians which held the Trinity to be composed of those three; but it is allowed that this heresy has been long since extinct. The passage, however, is equally levelled against the Holy Trinity, according to the doctrine of the orthodox Christians, who, as Al Beidawi acknowledges, believe the divine nature to consist of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; by the Father, understanding God's essence, by the Son, his knowledge, and by the Holy Ghost, his life.[4]


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AlsoFurther Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire says:

The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.[5]




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St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantia, in Cyprus, writing in the fourth century against the Collyridians, says:

"After this a heresy appeared, which we have already mentioned slightly by means of the letter written in Arabia about Mary. And this heresy was again made public in Arabia from Thrace and the upper parts of Scythia, and was brought to our ears, which to men of understanding will be found ridiculous and laughable. We will begin to trace it out, and to relate concerning it. It will be judged (to partake of) silliness rather than of sense, as is the case with other like it. For, as formerly, out of insolence towards Mary, those whose opinions were such sowed hurtful ideas in the reflexions of men, so otherwise these, leaning to the other side, fall into the utmost harm...... For the harm is equal in both these heresies, the one belittling the holy Virgin, the other again glorifying her over-much. For who should it be that teach thus but women? for the race of women is slippery, fallible, and humble-minded...... For some women deck out a koutrkon that is to say, a square stool, spreading upon it a linen cloth, on some solemn day of the year, for some days they lay out bread, and offer it in the name of Mary. All the women partake of the bread, as we related in the letter to Arabia, writing partly about that...... Yea, verily, the body of Mary was holy, but was surely not God. Verily, the Virgin was a virgin, and was honoured, but was not given to us to worship; but she worships Him who was born from her according to the flesh, having come from heaven out of the Father's bosom......" This offering and eating of cakes was probably derived from the worship of Artemis.[6]

River

You are correct. The Bible does not mention the Bible or Christians by name. However, the Quran mentions a scripture called " Injeel" and called it authentic. The Injeel translates to Gospel. But as you know the Bible is composed of 4 Gospels. Thus the Quran is not referring to the New Testament. So , the missionary claim that the Quran says that the Bible is true.....is not an honest claim.

Milton

Yet again you wrongly classify the Bible.

The Bible is the name given to the collection of all 66 books, not just four, or any other number.

Also, the Qu'ran revers to the "Scriptures" of the Christians and the Jews. It refers to the Law, as well. More importantly, it claims that Mohammed caim to "confirm" these Scriptures that had come before him. And in one account, it actually states that the Christians claimed to be "muslims" (submitted to God, and not referring to the religion) from long before (and no one said they were not). Onother account states that the Christians can be "closest" to Muslims, because they persevere in their studies. The question would be, if these studious Christians still existed, how was it possible that the Scriptures were lost? If these were studying the Scriptures, and were worthy of trust, then how could Mohammed turn around and claim that the Scriptures were lost long before he came?

River

- the Bible is made of more than one Book and is not the Singular Scripture that the Quran mentions. It is not the Injeel. During Muhammad's time some Christian monks and Jewish rabbis had certain segments of Scripture that offered considerable support for Prophet Muhammad. Many of these Scriptures are lost today or are circulated underground amongst esoterics.

-Yes, Christians did claim to be 'muslims". Take a look.



http://jews-for-allah.org/Prophet-Je...-for-Allah.htm


http://www.thenazareneway.com/the%20...0of%20paul.htm

Jesus said the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40, and told others to be a Muslim:

Aramaic translated into Hebrew: "Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

The Aramaic language and the Classical Arabic of the Qur'an are very closely related. The word " islam" is derived from the hebrew root " shalom" and the aramaic " shalem"


-Peace