Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Volker.Doormann · 07-09-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaranth
Bad news - Classic causality is bunk. Take a look at quantum theory sometime.

'Good news' - Some beings don't care about QM - like Osama Bin Laden, Mr. George W. B., or the AIDS virus. Take a look on macroscopic reality sometime.

Amaranth · 07-09-2003, 01:49 PM

That was a neat appeal to fear and all, but again - Classic causality is bunk.

Volker.Doormann · 07-09-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaranth
That was a neat appeal to fear and all, but again - Classic causality is bunk.

At the latest, if you shell die for an acting, that is caused by an other man as tall as you, you will cry for classic causality. If not - who cares. Nearly no one is worshipping the law of causality. The result (effect) is this world. What is injustice? A discipline teached in Quantum mechanics? A hoax? If QM does not include the universal principle of justice, it lacks about 50% of the real world. Useless as a clock without hand. Only he, who acknowledge the universal principle of justice, acknowledge the law of causality as an order in this nature. No one can escape from the order of this universe, which has spiritual laws as well as physical laws, but each one has the freedom to recognize these laws.

Volker

Amaranth · 07-09-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

No one can escape from the order of this universe, which has spiritual laws as well as physical laws, but each one has the freedom to recognize these laws.

Ah. Now I understand why you are so intent on disregarding science.

Oh, and is the Universal principle of Justice part of the Justice League of America?

sakrilege · 07-09-2003, 04:48 PM

I believe in Karma because whenever a spell checker gets ahold of my name, it changes it to Karma.

agnawstick · 07-09-2003, 05:22 PM

I believe in Karma in the sense that if you are nice to those around you, you are treated nicer in return as a rule. If you do something to make somebody's day, they are nicer to another person, who is nicer to another person, who might end up nicer to you... that sorta thing.

It is my philosophy. My life will be "meaningful" if I gave more than I took in. Enough people do this, and over the centuries, things will shape up, unless we done blow ourselves up first of course.

hinduwoman · 07-09-2003, 08:04 PM

Karma not as a metaphysical system or cosmic justice.
But it is also applicable in this life as well. Obviously it does not work everytime (which is why next life got dragged in), but I do believe more or less something like it.

echidna · 07-10-2003, 12:06 AM

Which is well and good as long as past & future lives (and therefore presumably the soul) are real. If one assumes they are real and Karma holds, then it drastically changes how we view atrocity & injustice.

A middle-aged man is brutally murdered. In a world of reincarnation & Karma, one could firstly make an assumption that he deserved it from an act of his in a past life. One may not as well, but I have seen this logic applied from time to time by believers in Karma. I gather it is also one of the reasons held up to religiously maintain the inequality of the Caste system.

Secondly if Karma holds then there is little to be concerned about anyway, since that man�s soul will presumably be balanced in a later life.

While the concept of Karma may be a pleasant notion in some contexts, without any evidence for its existence I find that it distorts and devalues our actions in the Here and Now.

Volker.Doormann · 07-10-2003, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaranth
Ah. Now I understand why you are so intent on disregarding science.

You have not shown, that QM or science can solve injustice. Your claim that there is no causality is an omnipotent claim, that teaches for wrong, that there is no causality. Your idol is blind science, which ignores the dimension of spiritual order, containing justice/injustice. I work in science for 30 years, and it is a good tool to use the forces of the physical nature, but it is useless to solve ethical problems. QM claims, that there is no causality to be seen, if there are running discrete photons through a double slit. But the resulting interference pattern in time - which Richard P. Feynman has called 'the only mystery' in QM - proves, that there is very well a simple classic causality, and is ignored by QM. It is no 'mystery', it is causality.

If there are arguments, that the acausality of QM does interfere with justice/injustice, or even can prove, that justice/injustice is an illusion of the mind, you are wellcome. If not - Thank you.

Volker

Carol Massey · 07-10-2003, 05:42 AM

Carrie,

An excerpt from a John Lilly book, Center of the Cyclone may help to put karma in its place:

Lilly's Law
"In the province of the mind, what is believed to be true is true or becomes true, within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits."
"The centre of the cyclone is that rising quiet central low-pressure place in which one can learn to live eternally. Just outside of this Centre is the rotating storm of one's own ego, competing with other egos in a furious high-velocity circular dance. As one leaves centre, the roar of rotating wind deafens on more and more as one joins this dance. One's centred thinking-feeling-being, one's own Satoris, are in the centre only, not outside. One's pushed-pulled driven states, one's anti-Satori modes of functioning, one's self-created hells, are outside the centre. In the centre of the cyclone one is off the wheel of Karma, of life, rising to join the Creators of the Universe, the Creators of us.
Here we find that we have created Them who are Us." -- John C. Lilly

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-09-2003, 01:49 PM	#12
Amaranth Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kansas City Posts: 279	That was a neat appeal to fear and all, but again - Classic causality is bunk.

07-09-2003, 04:48 PM	#15
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	I believe in Karma because whenever a spell checker gets ahold of my name, it changes it to Karma.

07-09-2003, 05:22 PM	#16
agnawstick Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: arcadia California Posts: 65	I believe in Karma in the sense that if you are nice to those around you, you are treated nicer in return as a rule. If you do something to make somebody's day, they are nicer to another person, who is nicer to another person, who might end up nicer to you... that sorta thing. It is my philosophy. My life will be "meaningful" if I gave more than I took in. Enough people do this, and over the centuries, things will shape up, unless we done blow ourselves up first of course.

07-09-2003, 08:04 PM	#17
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Karma not as a metaphysical system or cosmic justice. But it is also applicable in this life as well. Obviously it does not work everytime (which is why next life got dragged in), but I do believe more or less something like it.

07-10-2003, 12:06 AM	#18
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Which is well and good as long as past & future lives (and therefore presumably the soul) are real. If one assumes they are real and Karma holds, then it drastically changes how we view atrocity & injustice. A middle-aged man is brutally murdered. In a world of reincarnation & Karma, one could firstly make an assumption that he deserved it from an act of his in a past life. One may not as well, but I have seen this logic applied from time to time by believers in Karma. I gather it is also one of the reasons held up to religiously maintain the inequality of the Caste system. Secondly if Karma holds then there is little to be concerned about anyway, since that man�s soul will presumably be balanced in a later life. While the concept of Karma may be a pleasant notion in some contexts, without any evidence for its existence I find that it distorts and devalues our actions in the Here and Now.

07-10-2003, 05:42 AM	#20
Carol Massey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Springfield Missouri Posts: 86	Carrie, An excerpt from a John Lilly book, Center of the Cyclone may help to put karma in its place: Lilly's Law "In the province of the mind, what is believed to be true is true or becomes true, within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits." "The centre of the cyclone is that rising quiet central low-pressure place in which one can learn to live eternally. Just outside of this Centre is the rotating storm of one's own ego, competing with other egos in a furious high-velocity circular dance. As one leaves centre, the roar of rotating wind deafens on more and more as one joins this dance. One's centred thinking-feeling-being, one's own Satoris, are in the centre only, not outside. One's pushed-pulled driven states, one's anti-Satori modes of functioning, one's self-created hells, are outside the centre. In the centre of the cyclone one is off the wheel of Karma, of life, rising to join the Creators of the Universe, the Creators of us. Here we find that we have created Them who are Us." -- John C. Lilly

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.