Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Slavik91 · 03-27-2003, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
That�s a simile.

Umm, a simile is when one makes a comparison using "like" or "as".

DOH!

I read "without" as "with".

My bad.

Silent Acorns · 03-27-2003, 03:56 PM

Does that mean Sema-phore is a Meta-phor For ... prayer?

Oh and Cutter, the telephone was invented in the 1870s while radio only came about in the 20th century.

Cutter · 03-27-2003, 05:02 PM

Well, spank my ass and call me Charlie, so it was. You learn something new every day.

trillian · 03-28-2003, 07:52 PM

So what happened to Magus55? No response to Mageth? I guess he knows now that the astronomy claim is too easily refuted so I'll take on another one now that I've read though them here http://www.marshill.org/The%20Bible/..._the_Bible.htm as the other link is gone.

Quote:

A remarkable discovery by twentieth-century scientists has shed light on a possible reason for circumcision on the eighth day. When an infant is born the blood clotting mechanism is immature. Any cut or injury in the first few days of life can result in excessive bleeding. After several days of life, the vitamin K in the infants diet allows an important blood clotting factor, called prothrombin.
Today infants are given an injection of vitamin K at birth. Consequently, efficient blood clotting is established within hours. Without such therapy, it turns out that the prothrombin concentration reaches its peak on the eighth day of life! What a coincidence.

�Could it be that Abraham was given "inside information" from the One that created the clotting mechanism in the first place?

ALL children are given Vit K, not for circumcision but to prevent a fairly rare bleeding disorder. Despite that, God did not find time to warn his �chosen� that some boys with hemophilia will bleed to death no matter what day it is. And many did. Many others were sure to die of infections.
Further, NONE, not even ONE accredited pediatric group recommends circumcision as a routine procedure but allow it mostly for �social and ritualistic reasons�. Even if the blood clot level thing is true (I could find nothing except religious sites about it and the article give NO references to any studies) the only thing God foretells is the best day to mutilate the genitals of male babies. So why does God, who made us perfect in His image, scientifically want pieces of little boys penises?

Cutter · 03-28-2003, 09:04 PM

Oh for fucks sake! Have these people never heard of trial and error?

Demigawd · 03-29-2003, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by trillian1
So what happened to Magus55? No response to Mageth

Here is Magus55's response to my observation in the General Religion forum that he had ignored Mageth's challenge:

"Um, no - i posted that info to get people's opinions. You are gonna reject anything i present so i'm not gonna bother wasting my time trying to argue with people who don't give a crap. I just posted to see reactions, nothing more."

Wyz_sub10 · 03-29-2003, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demigawd
Here is Magus55's response to my observation in the General Religion forum that he had ignored Mageth's challenge:

"Um, no - i posted that info to get people's opinions. You are gonna reject anything i present so i'm not gonna bother wasting my time trying to argue with people who don't give a crap. I just posted to see reactions, nothing more."

Odd that he should think 2 dozen people responding to his OP "don't give a crap."

Maybe he means "don't give a crap about eternal salvation."

In any case, I do not think he is interested in exploring these issues.

If he no longer cares to discuss the OP, and if everyone else is "preaching to the choir" as it were (

), then I do not see much use in keeping this topic open.

I will give it a bit more time to see if anyone else takes up the discussion.

WinAce · 03-29-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

TITLE: Vitamin K1 levels and K1-dependent coagulation factors II and X in preterm and small-for-date neonates.
AUTHOR: Pietersma-de-Bruyn,-A-L; van-der-Straaten,-P-J; van-Haard,-P-M; Kuijpers,-J-C; Hamulyak,-K; Ruys,-J-H
SOURCE: Eur-J-Pediatr. 1990 Jun; 149 9: 640-4.
ABSTRACT: In 17 preterm neonates and 7 small-for-date neonates, all formula-fed, vitamin K-dependent coagulation factors II and X remained near 45% of adult values from the moment of birth until 28 days postnatally. Vitamin K1 levels, however, showed a remarkable rise from below the detection limit of 0.022 ng/ml in umbilical cord blood, to serum levels with a range of 0.99-7.29 ng/ml vitamin K1 on day 3, with a further rise on days 7 and 28 postnatally. Vitamin K1 Konakion parenterally given to a third group of four preterm neonates as a 1 mg dose resulted in very high serum levels of vitamin K1 64.08-157.10 ng/ml, but without any significant increase in plasma levels of vitamin K-dependent coagulation factors II and X, compared to the group without any extra vitamin K1. It is concluded that in healthy preterm and small-for-date neonates no correlation is seen between serum levels of vitamin K1 and plasma levels of coagulation factors II and X. After administration of 1 mg Konakion no accelerated increase is seen in coagulation factor activities.

Quote:

TITLE: Vitamin K coagulation status in surgical newborns and the risk of bleeding.
AUTHOR: Najmaldin,-A; Francis,-J; Postle,-A; Griffiths,-D-M; Burge,-D-M; Karran,-S; Gollow,-I; Atwell,-J-D
SOURCE: J-Pediatr-Surg. 1993 Feb; 28 2: 138-43.
ABSTRACT: The vitamin K coagulation status in surgical newborns, who may be at increased risk of developing hypocoagulability and hemorrhage, has not previously been studied. Therefore, we measured the combined activity of the plasma vitamin K-dependent coagulation factors Thrombotest, total prothrombin, PIVKA II, plasma vitamin K1, fibrinogen, D-Dimer, and platelets in 49 newborns admitted to a neonatal surgical intensive care unit. All infants had significant pathology, and treatment involved surgery in all but two. Twenty-three infants 47% underwent surgery on two or more occasions. Intravenous or oral antibiotics were used in all patients and many received more than one course. All infants had vitamin K1 prophylaxis at birth. At day 0 date of birth, the mean Thrombotest and total prothrombin levels were 51% range, 20% to 100% and 40% range, 24% to 59%, respectively. Coagulation activity decreased on day 1 P > .1 and was followed by a graduate increase in clotting activity, reaching normal adult levels > 60% at day 5 for Thrombotest and day 24 for total prothrombin. Only three infants had a Thrombotest less than 20%. PIVKA II was detected in 20 cases 41%. However, levels were within normal limits < 0.9% in 17 of these, and between 1.0 and 4.8% in the remaining three infants. There was no relationship between elevated PIVKA levels and coagulation activity in these patients. Plasma vitamin K1 was very high, particularly in the first days of life.

It would seem that the claim "prophrombin increases to its MAXIMUM on the eighth day" is a bit in trouble if it then *again* increases on day 28. An even bigger problem is that it doesn't even do the minimum the author of whatever book you copied and pasted from claims--a different coagulation factor reaching its peak on day 5 (usually) isn't good. He basically fudged facts in an inexcusable manner... or outright lied.

Ditto for vitamin K. And what part of "infants circumcised before the first week of life die, so we shouldn't do it" requires divine inspiration?

It's also worth remembering that 8 is number that is found in many Jewish traditions, from Hanukkah to symbols of luck. It's a no-brainer that they could pick it with no divine intervention.

BTW: I remember that the scientific papers listed above were first posted by Mad Kally when this topic came up months ago.

Justin70 · 03-29-2003, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demigawd
Here is Magus55's response to my observation in the General Religion forum that he had ignored Mageth's challenge:

"Um, no - i posted that info to get people's opinions. You are gonna reject anything i present so i'm not gonna bother wasting my time trying to argue with people who don't give a crap. I just posted to see reactions, nothing more."

Oh whatever!

So if the evidence doesn't line up with what Magus wants to believe he just runs away.

Freakin' Typical.

Justin

Boro Nut · 03-31-2003, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cutter
Oh for fucks sake! Have these people never heard of trial and error?

I have, but I avoid Russian authors as a rule.

Boro Nut

Except Chekov of course. That goes without saying. I just couldn't imaging Star Trek without him.

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03-27-2003, 03:56 PM	#52
Silent Acorns Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SW 31 52 24W4 Posts: 1,508	Does that mean Sema-phore is a Meta-phor For ... prayer? Oh and Cutter, the telephone was invented in the 1870s while radio only came about in the 20th century.

03-27-2003, 05:02 PM	#53
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	Well, spank my ass and call me Charlie, so it was. You learn something new every day.

03-28-2003, 09:04 PM	#55
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	Oh for fucks sake! Have these people never heard of trial and error?

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