Asha'man

Fatally flawed.

Debt is a civil contract issue, as long as the money is paid, the contract can be met. Sin is a criminal offense, justice requires that the criminal, and no other, be punished. (Unless you represent the Catholic Church in the middle ages, and want to get rich selling Indulgences. )

The original creditor and the mediator are the same entity. You can’t repay a debt to yourself and have the contract met, that is exactly the same as forgiving the debt entirely, which the original creditor was unwilling to do.

A loan is a civil contract that must be agreed upon by all parties, with full knowledge and cooperation. No third party can be added into the contract without his or her knowledge and cooperation. However, according to xian theology, this “loan” was originated 6000 years ago, and was paid off 2000 years ago. I was never informed or asked to participate, therefore the entire transaction is utterly irrelevant to me.

JEST2ASK

Sorry I am a little slow on the uptake ... exactely how does this relate to Christ ..... Hebrews 9: 11 - 28*
For Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many....

(side note to the judge illustration) 16-17
For where there is a testament there must also of necessity be the death of the testator . For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testor lives.


So if Christ did not stay dead there is no sacrifice

malookiemaloo

I agree but the yacht analogy was only meant to illustrate ONE aspect of the crucifixion ie redemption. The boy bought back what was already his.


m

malookiemaloo

Hello,

I see the point you make re lending a fiver. But if you say you are letting me off then that's OK. But what if you ask for the debt to be paid and I say 'no' but you insist that the debt must be paid otherwise it will adversly affect our friendship?

In the first case I have been let off. This is NOT what happened on the cross. God cannot let people 'off' with sin.

This discussion inevitably leads to God's justice and hatred of sin (a much under mis-understood subject-even in Christian circles) and redemption.


m


Illogical or not by wa

worldling

Firstly, I know that this is not what happened in the story of the cross. That is the point - I'm looking for an analogy of what did happen.

Secondly, "god cannot let people 'off' with sin"? Beyond his powers is it?

Thirdly, you still have not addressed the point that one cannot pay back a debt to oneself. It is logically impossible.

The crucifixion story is all ill-thought-out piece of apologetic nonsense, devoid of internal logic. That is why nobody - not even the leader of the Mormon church (see above) - has ever been able to explain it by means of a real-life analogy.

malookiemaloo

Sorry, can't think of an analogy but if I do I shall be in touch. It is not something which has ever bothered me.

Similarly I have never had a problem with God taking our punishment Himself. What is your problem with this?

Sorry but I do not have much patience with the God cannot sin therefore He cannot do everything type of argument.


m

worldling

That is because you have never thought about it. Had you thought about it before you became a Christian, you would probably never have become one. Now that you have crossed the Rubicon of belief, it seems you have lost the ability to think clearly about what it is you believe.

Have you been following this thread at all? My problem with the story is that it is absurd. Just think about it. For a minute. Look back at the revised judge analogy. Tell me why that is not an accurate depiction of the crucifixion story.

Nobody is making that argument. You implied that it was beyonds god's power to simply "let people off" sin. I questioned you. You ducked.

Bobzammel

Another analogy is used by Jesus himself: That one must crucify their own desires and devote themselves to the Church--"Take up your cross daily" etc.
A similar approach is taken by Paul, who states that sinful passions(Some physical, some mental) as well as ambition are 'crucified'.
Finally, it's also stated that the Mosaic Law is being crucified, which flys in the face of the Old Testament.

malookiemaloo

Sorry if you think I 'ducked out'. Not my intention.

God cannot go against His nature or break His own rules. If accusing Him of not being able to do so makes certain things owers, so be it.

Still don't understand your difficulties about God taking our deserved punishment Himself. That's the wonder of it really. For my part, still can't think of an analogy!

best,


m

worldling

I think you'll find that god's nature and his rules are defined by you and your co-religionists in this case in order to preserve the illusion that the crucifixion was necessary, and makes sense. And you will also find that there are numerous occasions related in the bible when god breaks his own rules (but if you want to talk about that, start another thread)

There is a reason you can't think of an analogy.

Tell you what, why not just critique the judge-blowing-his-own-brains-out analogy? What is wrong with that one? Others have already noted a couple of things. Can you think of anything else?