Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 05-12-2003, 09:27 AM

But the Wachowski brothers don't claim "The Matrix" is literally true. That's the difference. Dee Laney belonged to an organization that teaches that the story of Abraham and Isaac is literally true AND that teaches mental illness is best treated by prayer and faith. If she weren't in that organization she might have recognized voices in her head as a sign of mental illness instead of a command from God, and sought help instead of keeping it to herself.

the_cave · 05-12-2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
But the Wachowski brothers don't claim "The Matrix" is literally true. That's the difference. Dee Laney belonged to an organization that teaches that the story of Abraham and Isaac is literally true AND that teaches mental illness is best treated by prayer and faith. If she weren't in that organization she might have recognized voices in her head as a sign of mental illness instead of a command from God, and sought help instead of keeping it to herself.

That is a good distinction. I'll agree that some Christians--a surprising number, it would seem--do think that prayer alone is the best medical care possible in our age. And they should indeed be derided for that belief.

Ronin · 05-12-2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Persons who hear voices inside their head suffer from psychosis, regardless of their religious beliefs. Trying to blame psychotic behavior on religious belief seems to me to be bizarrely naive.

The difference is that religious belief constantly promotes the concept of a disembodied, yet ever present, object called God.

I find it odd to observe that if you talk to God, you are praying (allegedly normal and comforting behavior)...but, if God talks to you, you have a psychosis.

I find that reasoning flawed in the extreme.

Quote:

Psychosis is an unfortunate fact of human nature. There may be environmental factors, but schizophrenia, for example, appears to have at least some genetic predisposition. My point is, does anyone really think that if these mothers had not been religious, they would not have heard voices telling them to kill their children?

Yes, I do.

Most of the instances of infanticide have the religious variable assigned to them. Most of the violent criminal behavior I encounter have the religious variable assigned to them.

And, on the off chance that if a non-religious mother did hear voices telling her to kill her children, her symptoms would have been more readily recognizable by the non-theist who does not constantly promote the behavior of talking to imaginary sky-men and receiving messages from them as normal.

Quote:

Indeed, it seems to me that it's far more likely that someone undergoing psychosis would come to the conclusion that they were being spoken to by a god, regardless of their background, than the other way around. Isn't this obvious? People who are psychotic are in need of medical care--castigating them for their lack of reason and good sense is amazingly absurd.

It may seem that way to you, however, the constant behavioral modification of 'god talk' actively promotes this type of compartmentalization leading to the horrendous behavior we have seen recently and throughout history. Behavior that you have classified as psychotic.

I assert that, if you hold to your position, then religious belief as a whole is psychotic.

A position which is not entirely indefensible, I admit.

However, I do not find that pointing out the flaws in religious behavior or castigating them for their lack of reason and good sense is absurd.

Indeed, I find that it is necessary for others to see the religious nonsense for what it is, and the enormous lengths some go to in order to insulate the mindless from real human compassion, love for family and rational understanding.

Tenek · 05-12-2003, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by the_cave
Persons who hear voices inside their head suffer from psychosis, regardless of their religious beliefs. Trying to blame psychotic behavior on religious belief seems to me to be bizarrely naive.

Psychosis is an unfortunate fact of human nature. There may be environmental factors, but schizophrenia, for example, appears to have at least some genetic predisposition. My point is, does anyone really think that if these mothers had not been religious, they would not have heard voices telling them to kill their children?

I certainly think that religious beliefs can be used in very unhealthy ways--for example, as an explanation for psychotic symptoms--but to my knowledge, no major Christian sect (or minor sect, that I can think of) today teaches that such voices should be seen as a sign from God. I suppose it could be the case that the people around these women were unresponsive to the clear signs of psychosis, but something in me suspects that not many people were in fact aware of what was happening, and there is no evidence in either of these cases that any religious organization was encouraging their lack of treatment.

Indeed, it seems to me that it's far more likely that someone undergoing psychosis would come to the conclusion that they were being spoken to by a god, regardless of their background, than the other way around. Isn't this obvious? People who are psychotic are in need of medical care--castigating them for their lack of reason and good sense is amazingly absurd.

Perhaps one could argue that those who suffer from psychotic illnesses should be kept away from religious writings--but shouldn't they then be kept away from all writings of a potentially disturbing nature? I mean, blaming the Bible--or religion in general--for these killings is like blaming the Wachowski brothers for John Malvo's spree some months ago (he was apparently very impressed by "The Matrix".)

Psychosis doesn't play favourites. Non-theists might just as easily have heard voices telling them to kill their children. *BUT* they don't already believe in God, and might think themselves insane and get therapy or whatnot. Or, failing that, they might not go the "lean not on your own understanding" route and just ignore them, instead of trusting in God. The experience might be the same but the interpretation is much worse given great faith.

wade-w · 05-12-2003, 09:41 PM

The_cave:

About a year ago, I was in a chat, and debating a fundy. She claimed, as one of her "proofs" of the existence of god, that she hears voices in her head. I replied that she ought to seek medical help. This not only infuriated her, but several other people who were there at the time.

I am quite sure that if those voices were to tell her to commit murder, she would consider it a command from her god.

05-13-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wade-w
The_cave:

About a year ago, I was in a chat, and debating a fundy. She claimed, as one of her "proofs" of the existence of god, that she hears voices in her head. I replied that she ought to seek medical help. This not only infuriated her, but several other people who were there at the time.

I am quite sure that if those voices were to tell her to commit murder, she would consider it a command from her god.

I had a similar experience a few months ago when I visited a xian message board. A xian teenager there was freaking out because he claimed that "demons" were telling him to commit all kinds of violent acts, including suicide. When I told him that demons weren't real and suggested that he seek professional help, the other xians attacked me and revoked my posting privileges. Their solution to the young man's problems? Prayer.

Deacon Doubtmonger · 05-17-2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Hey, when Abraham heard a voice in his head telling him to kill his son Isaac, he was prepared to do as he was told. Ms. Laney was just doing as the people in the Bible did. That's one of the main messages of the Old Testament: if you hear a voice in your head that claims to be God, believe and obey it.

Oh, how this brings to mind a theological quandary posed by the immortal George Carlin: "Speaking of delusional people, what about a guy who hears a voice in his head telling him to go kill his entire family, so he does it? Is this the only thing a voice in the head ever tells these people to do, is to kill others? Doesn't a voice in the head ever say, 'Go take a shit on the salad bar at Wendy's?' " Not entirely funny in this context ...

Deacon Doubtmonger of Denver

Vorkosigan · 05-17-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

She is a sick, sick woman. Ever since having my own child, I can't fathom how anyone could harm any child, especially their own!

Really? Your kid must not be old enough to talk yet....

Family Man · 05-17-2003, 08:31 AM

I had a debate recently in this forum where a theist insisted he heard a distinct voice in his head he was certain was from God. I get messages from God appears to me to be a common theme among Christians.

JCS · 05-17-2003, 01:33 PM

Well after reading about this murder and today seeing this in a topic here, http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=53592 the goal posts for my understanding inhumanity have been moved out of my reach.

Quote:

Forcing your child to endure any amount of physical suffering, (even crucifixion) is worth the price of ensuring eternal love for even one of your children.

I'm not quite sure what to think of christians anymore. I am at loss for words as to how disturbing some of their thought processes work.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-12-2003, 09:27 AM	#11
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	But the Wachowski brothers don't claim "The Matrix" is literally true. That's the difference. Dee Laney belonged to an organization that teaches that the story of Abraham and Isaac is literally true AND that teaches mental illness is best treated by prayer and faith. If she weren't in that organization she might have recognized voices in her head as a sign of mental illness instead of a command from God, and sought help instead of keeping it to herself.

05-12-2003, 09:41 PM	#15
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	The_cave: About a year ago, I was in a chat, and debating a fundy. She claimed, as one of her "proofs" of the existence of god, that she hears voices in her head. I replied that she ought to seek medical help. This not only infuriated her, but several other people who were there at the time. I am quite sure that if those voices were to tell her to commit murder, she would consider it a command from her god.

05-17-2003, 08:31 AM	#19
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	I had a debate recently in this forum where a theist insisted he heard a distinct voice in his head he was certain was from God. I get messages from God appears to me to be a common theme among Christians.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.