h

Apologist,
If you would like to expand upon this debate via ICQ, my # is 151692513. I have decided upon 3:00am as my bedtime though, so it can only last ~hour.

Devilnaut

Thank you for the clarification. It seems that this sentence is a little bit redundant, however. Believing that he does not exist, thereby embracing the belief that he does not exist?

Another question, if I may. Do you think that it requires faith to disbelieve in the existence of any specific creature or entity, lacking any evidence whatsoever?

To rephrase, do you have "faith" that magical invisible tree sprites do not exist? Or are you suggesting that it is equally possible that they exist / do not exist?

Edit to add the obvious third possibility, that The Apologist believes that such sprites do exist.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

Anunnaki

This belief is a result of a complete lack of evidence for the gods of so called "holy books" as well as from every other mythology man has invented.

Faith that the market will get more of that cheese you like or that the sun will come up tomorrow is one thing. Revolving ones life around faith that Jesus is the son of god and the only nonmythological Mediterranean resurrected godman is quite a different matter.

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

seebs

I don't see it, however, as much different from building your moral life around any other axiom, such as "people should not suffer needlessly". You pick axioms; you use axioms.

The Apologist

First, it should be noted that the atheist does not only disaffirm the Christian God. Rather, he disaffirms any God whatsoever, by definition. Thus, atheism is not justified by disproving the existence of the Christian God.

I think not. That He desires the salvation of everyone does not mean that He compels the salvation of everyone. He allows us to decide, being omnibenevolent and granting independent volition.

Regrettably, I do not have ICQ.

Remember that the definition of atheism was in dispute.

Yes, of course. Does not one "believe" that such beings do not exist? Belief is synonymous with, or requisite of, faith.

Of course, it is fatuous to declare that such things have no possiblity of existence; there is no way to know with certainty. However, I do have faith that such creatures do not exist.

I see what you are trying to accomplish through analogy, but I cannot compare these illustrations with God. The exigent discrepancy is that I perceive a profusion of evidence for God, while I agree that your instantiations have no known supporting evidence. This is where your comparison fails.

Devilnaut

How many times must it be said? Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity. You, my friend, ARE an atheist in regards to any given deity but the Christian one. Atheism is not the polar opposite of theism, it is simply the lack of theism. It needs no justification. Atheism would only be irrational (and would therefore require faith) if there was a multitude of good evidence for the existence of a deity. Yes, any deity will do.

I don't see why you don't apply this same sort of logic to everything else. Allow me to define Devilnautism as the belief that I am God. I am assuming that you are not a Devilnautist. Therefore, you are an Adevilnautist. Please explain just why your position requires any faith whatsoever! Remember, faith is defined as belief without reason. You do have a reason to believe that I am not God, and that reason is that my claim is very extraordinary. It is the same for atheists concerning God belief, and I consider your argument refuted.


devilnaut

editted for formatting..

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

WJ

Realist!

"Without risk there is no faith. Faith is precisely the contradiction between the infinite passion of the individual's inwardness and the objective uncertainty. If I am capable of grasping God's objectivity, I do not believe. If I wish to preserve myself in faith I must constantly be intent upon holding fast the objective uncertainty, so as to remain out upon the deep, over seventy fathoms of water, still preserving my faith"-SK

Didn't know whether that [may] helps with your inquiry or not....

Walrus

The Realist

Thanks for the insight guys.

As far as atheism being based on faith, I have to completely disagree. To me, it is a lack of faith that lead me to be labeled as an atheist. It is the fact that I must question, that I must have answers before I commit myself to any religion that has led me not to have one. Atheism isn't a religion, as was said before. It can't be proved, as there is nothing to prove.
I don't claim there isn't a god, I claim there is no evidence for one.
If you claim there is one, it is up to you, the claimant, to cough up evidence that can be reproduced or seen by anybody with the inclinatin to do so.

WJ, as far as risk goes, there is a difference between calculated risk and blind risk. A calculated risk involves some degree of measured uncertainty, and is usually based off of facts.
Blind risk is taking a chance with no idea of the possibilities or circumstances concerning the outcome.
And sorry, but to me religion is blind risk.

sidewinder

This seems more complicated than it needs to be.

I look at the evidence and arrive at a conclusion based on the evidence presented to me. I think most atheists are atheists because they examine the evidence and determine that the evidence for the existence of a god is lacking. IMHO, they are therefore justified in their position. Each person will judge the evidence differently based on many factors. We do this with many things in our daily lives. Why should religion be any different? Further, since we do this with many things in our daily lives, why is it so hard for theists to understand how some arrive at different conclusions than they do?

I think most people are open to examining evidence for certain claims and are willing to change their beliefs if they are convinced that the evidence warrants changing their beliefs. If you have any new evidence for the existence of a god, or your god specifically, beyond all the recycled arguments of the past 2000 years, then please present it and it'll be examined.

WJ

Realist!

Don't mean to be snippid, but what is Love? Blind risk? Faith, or what?

Or, think about your passion's from an ethical perspective. How does one's passion (passionate goals) motivate and create perserverence in the face of uncertainty?

(Does uncertainty exist? What is uncertainty viz. Deity?)

....just some more thoughts.....

Walrus

Walrus