excreationist

I'm talking about the Heaven or New Jerusalem(?) described in Revelations. In Christian morality, things like free love are probably not permitted. Even nudity is probably not allowed.

What about things like equality and the challenge to find meaning for your life yourself? And the fact that our present existence is obviously very real. The future is only imagined. I'm talking about concentrating on the present rather than some distant future where you're dead and no-one remembers you. What's the point of caring about whether you will be appreciated in the distant future... seriously, WHAT IS THE POINT? It might matter to some people, but it doesn't have to matter. And as I said before there are some ways that having no afterlife is more inspirational than having one. Consider John Lennon's song "Imagine" - in it he is trying to talk about positive things and yet he is talking about living for today - with no belief in heaven or hell.

I'm talking about how my existence would affect molecules in the future. But why does my current happiness need to require that I will be eternally remembered by others? This may be important for you, but it doesn't mean that everyone has this need.

Well we have police and families to discourage us from being murderers, etc. God on the other hand sees impure thoughts as a major sin though... I guess that that could be a significant factor... I can't be bothered feeling guilty about any bad thoughts that may pass through my mind every now and then.

Well poltergeists and demon possession would be good evidence - or someone continuing to walk around without any brain or brain-stem or someone being dead (even when monitored with multi-million dollar brain scanning technology) and giving an accurate account of what they saw in an out of body experience (what they read). There would be no other explanation but an out of body experience. Apparently in many operating theatres, they put words on top of high places, like shelves to verify if the person had a real OBE or not. The existence of OBE's doesn't necessarily mean souls are real though - it could just be a very sophisticated sensory phenomenon. But if the multi-million dollar brain-scanning equipment showed that there was no brain activity anywhere at all in the brain (even deep within it in some of the neurons) then this would mean that souls exist...

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

svensky

So the answer is no then.

These are (unsurprisingly) absurd demands to make for proof of the existence of a soul.

Jason

excreationist

svensky:
I didn't mean that you had to prove all of them... even demon possession would be pretty good evidence... the Bible is filled with dozens and dozens of incidents - some in explicit detail - some just referred to in passing.

Does demon possession still occur today? Or did the demons just come out when Jesus came to visit? That sounds very unusual.

Demon possession was also fairly common in the Dark Ages as well....

Here's some demon possession stories that you might find interesting...
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matt+17:14-21&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Matthew 17:14-21</a>/<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Mark+9:17-29&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Mark 9:17-29</a>/<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+9:38-43&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Luke 9:38-43</a> - The epileptic demon.
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+12%3A22-26&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Matthew 12:22-26</a>/<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+11:14-18&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Luke 11:14-18</a> - the blind/mute demon.
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+9:32-33&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Matthew 9:32-33</a> - the mute demon.
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+13:10-13&language=english&version=NIV-IBS&showfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">Luke 13:10-13</a> - the crippling spirit.

So did demon possession *ever* occur or not? If it did occur, does it still occur today? If it occurs today, where's the evidence?

[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

JL

svensky,

I think the bleak reality we atheists are being asked to embrace seems bleak only out of harboring those assumptions about the nature of the universe as given to us by Christianity. That meaning is something given, that its origin comes from the very fabric of reality itself. Who could imagine a scenario that exhalts the ego more? All others indeed pale in comparison. This is percisely why atheism is perceived as fatalistic or inherently depressing by theists.

As Valis' post pointed out it is quite possible to find spirituality in a naturalistic world view. When we abandon our bias towards the ultimate it becomes possible to ally ourselves with what is potentially an ephemeral struggle. To be moved by even the most mundane of scientific advancements insofar as they represent our continuing collective spirit of conquest and discovery. A celebration of the struggle of life.

Perhaps there is some inherent need within our psyche to associate ourselves with something more permanent, but why not find it in the advancement of the human race? Surely this could be appreciated by the Christian as arguably the highest expression of altruism that we might obtain as mortals...

And besides, if the only sure thing is change in the universe, have we not indeed found another ground of being into which we might be assimilated and find eternity?

Adrian Selby

Personally I savour life because I'm mortal, because every decision I make has to count, and every day is one day closer to death. All of my experience is treasured, making others happy is lovely, and I enjoy it, and I enjoy material pleasures too, along with mental ones, like this message board.

My atheism defines my happiness.

Adrian

svensky

I've heard a fair bit of anecdotal evidence from missionaries to the existence of demon possession. But I suppose that wouldn't count.

Incidentally, assuming the accuracy of the bible, and its accounts of demon possession and who the devil is. Why would you expect to see demon possession in the west ? Wouldn;t that provide evidence of the supernatural that our culture has done so much to bury ? It would kind of give the game away.

As I said, i've seen anecdotal evidence, but I doubt that would count. I'll have a look today for some more evidence for souls, i'll see if I can turn anything interesting up that isn't anecdotal.

Jason

hezekiah jones

"More" evidence? What was the prior evidence?

excreationist

Yeah, not only did demon possession happen in Jesus' day and in the Dark Ages, it also can happen amongst primitive people.... maybe our scientific society is scaring the demons away somehow.

Well apparently there was demon possession in Europe until recently - I think even the Pope did an exorcism recently. I guess like God, the demons are hiding too... what about people who try to summon spirits though... I mean you can't put the Lord to the test, but maybe spirits aren't so shy. So what are the demons doing now? Hiding in the shadows, pretending that they don't exist, occasionally possessing primitive people? And if they're so intelligent, what do they gain from temporarily possessing people?

Ok...

svensky

Do you really want a biblical take on demonology ?

Jason

excreationist

Basically I was just wondering what you meant by this:
BTW, what do you think about those Bible passages I've listed so far? They involve mute, blind, epileptic and crippled people and demons are blamed. The demons are exorcised by Jesus and their illness leaves them.