Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ecco · 01-24-2002, 05:31 AM

OK, I understand what someone means when they talk about god (the Father). I also understand when they talk about the son (jesus Christ). But will someone please explain what the hell the Holy Ghost is?

fred pratt · 01-24-2002, 12:32 PM

As a cradle Catholic, my introduction to the wonder of Christian mysteries began when I was about 14 seconds old.

The Trinity was among the most delicious to ponder while trying to avoid paying attention to things like fractions in grade school. I remember thinking about the Trinity one day in the 5th grade, and I ended up counting more than three persons! Of course this was traumatic for a saintly Catholic child. In fact, I would think it would give an orthodox Christian of any age the shivers.

See, in heaven at the moment, we allegedly have the following personages, each of whom, in one form or another, is God:

1. God the Father in the form of pure spirit.

2. God the Son, Jesus, in the form of a human body.

3. God the Son, Jesus, in the form of a human soul which is pure spirit.

4. The Holy Spirit in the form of pure spirit.

Since Christian doctrine clearly teaches that, though they may comprise a single human being, the human body and human soul are separate and distinct entities, it is clear that there are in fact FOUR persons in one God rather than three -- one human body and three individual spirits.

I'm at a loss to know how to get around this conundrum. I couldn't resolve it in the 5th grade, and I still can't. I asked a nun once, and she turned purple and terrorized me with an inch-thick ruler. I could never bring myself to ask again.

Any help anyone could offer here would be appreciated...

And just as an aside: If Jesus were traveling at the speed of light since his ascension into heaven, he still wouldn't have cleared the Milky Way. How far out is heaven? Or are we to conclude that he was somehow transferred into a different dimension(s) or state of being? And if Jesus is now in heaven in his physical body, then heaven of necessity must be a physical place. Where is it? Is it possible that advanced space travelers might run across it sometime in the future? According to Catholic dogma, the Virgin Mary is also there bodily, and in the OT, Elijah made the trip in the flesh riding a chariot of fire, as I recall. Could future astronauts expect to see the three of them riding around otherwise empty-looking space in Elijah's chariot?

I know these questions may sound fecetious. But for believers in orthodox Christian doctrine, they cannot be dismissed out of hand without doing violence to honest examination of the glaring ramifications implicit in the entire belief system at a very rudimentary level.

Any ideas...?

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: fred pratt ]

theophilus · 01-24-2002, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden:


But we can often make "sense" of things we cannot experience, usually by analogy or some other descriptive form.

That requires an "analogous" form. "Love is like X," X being another sensible thing from which understanding can be derived in relationship to love.
Since nothing sensible is analogous to the Trinity, there can be no analogy.
People have tried to compare it to water, which exists in three states, but this is clearly faulty.
Man himself comes the closest, being simultaneously body and spirit but one man. This ultimately fails because the body dies.

For example, we don't "experience" atoms (in the sense of actually touching them or seeing them individually in detail), but we can make sense of much of their function by studying the effects of their interactions and describing their apparent form through analogy (I'm sure we've all heard the orbits of electrons compared to those of planets). While these methods may not be exact, they certainly do serve the purpose.

But surely you recognize that these are both sensible, i.e., material things.

So, is there perhaps a good analogy that one might use to assist non-believers in "making sense" of the Trinity?
Sorry. The Trinity is a confession of faith, not a physically experienced reality. We experience the effects of each member, i.e., creation, redemption, sanctification, but not the person himself.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

P.S. Could <a href="http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/trinity/trinity.html" target="_blank">this</a> be the essay of which you were speaking?

It appears to be. I have it in an anthology of reformed articles.

theophilus · 01-24-2002, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Foxhole Atheist:
“If I were going to deny God, I hope that I would at least take the time to make sure I understood what I was denying.”

Theophilus, I know full well what I’m denying. There are some, who in practicing their priest craft are telling me there exists a god who is divided into three parts, but is actually one.

I meant nothing disparing. I simply meant that your understanding of the doctrine is deficient (as illustrated again here), and yet you believe you have sufficient understanding to reject it.]
God is not divided. That is the essence of the doctrine - three persons, ONE God.
Neither was the Son begotten in time. He has always existed with the father.

Now, as far as the OT is concerned, are you trying to interpret the trinity into it? I believe the Hebrews would have something to say about that.

God is manifested as Creator, Redeemer, and Spirit throughout the OT. The word Trinity is mentioned in neither Testament. It is a doctrine developed, on the witness of the scripture, to describe, not define the ontological nature of God.

“The Trinity cannot be experienced, so cannot be made "sense" of.” Now, you’ve said something we can both agree upon.

We're making progress.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: theophilus ]

Foxhole Atheist · 01-24-2002, 01:44 PM

“But will someone please explain what the hell the Holy Ghost is?”

That is how Mary became inseminated. (no joke)

“Man himself comes the closest, being simultaneously body and spirit but one man. This ultimately fails because the body dies.”

and when man dies, so does the spirit.

theophilus · 01-24-2002, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fred pratt:

See, in heaven at the moment, we allegedly have the following personages, each of whom, in one form or another, is God:

1. God the Father in the form of pure spirit.

2. God the Son, Jesus, in the form of a human body.

3. God the Son, Jesus, in the form of a human soul which is pure spirit.

4. The Holy Spirit in the form of pure spirit.

Since Christian doctrine clearly teaches that, though they may comprise a single human being, the human body and human soul are separate and distinct entities, it is clear that there are in fact FOUR persons in one God rather than three -- one human body and three individual spirits.

I'm at a loss to know how to get around this conundrum. I couldn't resolve it in the 5th grade, and I still can't. I asked a nun once, and she turned purple and terrorized me with an inch-thick ruler. I could never bring myself to ask again.

Any help anyone could offer here would be appreciated...

I know these questions may sound fecetious. But for believers in orthodox Christian doctrine, they cannot be dismissed out of hand without doing violence to honest examination of the glaring ramifications implicit in the entire belief system at a very rudimentary level.

Any ideas...?

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: fred pratt ]

The questions don't sound "facetious," just misinformed.
Jesus' was resurrected in a "glorified" body, i.e., he was not constrained by physical laws of space or dimensionality.
He does not exist "in heaven" in an earthly body, but he does (somehow) retain the "marks" of his crucifixion.
As to heaven being a place, it is a place, in the sense that it is where God exists, but I have always thought of this dimensionally rather than spacially.
Most of what is said about heaven is speculative and presumtious.

Foxhole Atheist · 01-25-2002, 03:07 AM

“Jesus' was resurrected in a "glorified" body, i.e., he was not constrained by physical laws of space or dimensionality.
He does not exist "in heaven" in an earthly body, but he does (somehow) retain the "marks" of his crucifixion.”

How do you know all this to be true?

fred pratt · 01-25-2002, 11:59 AM

C'mon, Theophilus,

You must be able to do better than that. You assert that "Most of what is said about heaven is speculative and presumtious" [sic].

Do your own claims about heaven -- it's a "place", "...it is where God exists" -- fall outside that "most of what is said" qualification? And how about your generous enlightenment (and don't think I'm not appreciative) about Jesus and his "glorified" body after the resurrection? You know, the one "not constrained by physical laws of space or demensionality"? Is that also an esoteric revelation limited to a chosen few who are thereby not limited to speculation?

But back to heaven for a moment. Speaking of Jesus, you allow that his earthly body "does not exist in heaven", despite clear biblical testimony confirming that indeed his earthly body ascended. Yes, at the tomb he admonished Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father, but he couldn't wait for poor Thomas to finger his wounds. What did he do, flip back and forth -- glorified/profane -- as the situation demanded? Did he eat glorified fish with his apostles on the shore of the lake? How were they all able to tell the glorified bass from the regular stuff? What does glorified bass taste like, chicken?

Your assertion that Jesus "somehow" retains the "marks of his crucifixion" in heaven is about as fathomable as claiming certain knowledge of the colors of angel wing feathers, so I'll pass on it.

Taken all together, I guess you must have a private line to the other world to be able to distinguish what you know from all that speculative and presumptuous propaganda the "uninformed" throw around. I wish I had the number...

Best regards.

theophilus · 01-25-2002, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Foxhole Atheist:
“Jesus' was resurrected in a "glorified" body, i.e., he was not constrained by physical laws of space or dimensionality.
He does not exist "in heaven" in an earthly body, but he does (somehow) retain the "marks" of his crucifixion.”

How do you know all this to be true?

I read the book.

theophilus · 01-25-2002, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fred pratt:
C'mon, Theophilus,

You must be able to do better than that. You assert that "Most of what is said about heaven is speculative and presumtious" [sic].

I was speaking of statements by believers, who feel qualified to speak authoritatively about what heaven is "like."[/qb]

Do your own claims about heaven -- it's a "place", "...it is where God exists" -- fall outside that "most of what is said" qualification?

Heaven is God's domain, that much we know. Beyond that, the Bible is pretty much silent. Descriptions such as those in Revelation must be understood figuratively.

And how about your generous enlightenment (and don't think I'm not appreciative) about Jesus and his "glorified" body after the resurrection? You know, the one "not constrained by physical laws of space or demensionality"? Is that also an esoteric revelation limited to a chosen few who are thereby not limited to speculation?

No, it's actually pretty clear in the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 15: 20 - 23; 42 - 45.

But back to heaven for a moment. Speaking of Jesus, you allow that his earthly body "does not exist in heaven", despite clear biblical testimony confirming that indeed his earthly body ascended.

Yes, at the tomb he admonished Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father, but he couldn't wait for poor Thomas to finger his wounds. What did he do, flip back and forth -- glorified/profane -- as the situation demanded? Did he eat glorified fish with his apostles on the shore of the lake? How were they all able to tell the glorified bass from the regular stuff? What does glorified bass taste like, chicken?[/qb]

You'd be better served to leave out the foolishness. Yes, he had a body, but it had been transformed, as the verses above clearly show. Read John 20:19 where Jesus appeared to the disciples inside a room with closed doors.

Your assertion that Jesus "somehow" retains the "marks of his crucifixion" in heaven is about as fathomable as claiming certain knowledge of the colors of angel wing feathers, so I'll pass on it.

Revelation 5: 6 - 10 might help you.

Taken all together, I guess you must have a private line to the other world to be able to distinguish what you know from all that speculative and presumptuous propaganda the "uninformed" throw around. I wish I had the number...

No you don't.

Best regards.[/QB]

01-24-2002, 12:32 PM	#22
fred pratt Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 72	As a cradle Catholic, my introduction to the wonder of Christian mysteries began when I was about 14 seconds old. The Trinity was among the most delicious to ponder while trying to avoid paying attention to things like fractions in grade school. I remember thinking about the Trinity one day in the 5th grade, and I ended up counting more than three persons! Of course this was traumatic for a saintly Catholic child. In fact, I would think it would give an orthodox Christian of any age the shivers. See, in heaven at the moment, we allegedly have the following personages, each of whom, in one form or another, is God: 1. God the Father in the form of pure spirit. 2. God the Son, Jesus, in the form of a human body. 3. God the Son, Jesus, in the form of a human soul which is pure spirit. 4. The Holy Spirit in the form of pure spirit. Since Christian doctrine clearly teaches that, though they may comprise a single human being, the human body and human soul are separate and distinct entities, it is clear that there are in fact FOUR persons in one God rather than three -- one human body and three individual spirits. I'm at a loss to know how to get around this conundrum. I couldn't resolve it in the 5th grade, and I still can't. I asked a nun once, and she turned purple and terrorized me with an inch-thick ruler. I could never bring myself to ask again. Any help anyone could offer here would be appreciated... And just as an aside: If Jesus were traveling at the speed of light since his ascension into heaven, he still wouldn't have cleared the Milky Way. How far out is heaven? Or are we to conclude that he was somehow transferred into a different dimension(s) or state of being? And if Jesus is now in heaven in his physical body, then heaven of necessity must be a physical place. Where is it? Is it possible that advanced space travelers might run across it sometime in the future? According to Catholic dogma, the Virgin Mary is also there bodily, and in the OT, Elijah made the trip in the flesh riding a chariot of fire, as I recall. Could future astronauts expect to see the three of them riding around otherwise empty-looking space in Elijah's chariot? I know these questions may sound fecetious. But for believers in orthodox Christian doctrine, they cannot be dismissed out of hand without doing violence to honest examination of the glaring ramifications implicit in the entire belief system at a very rudimentary level. Any ideas...? [ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: fred pratt ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-24-2002, 05:31 AM	#21
ecco Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SE Posts: 4,845	OK, I understand what someone means when they talk about god (the Father). I also understand when they talk about the son (jesus Christ). But will someone please explain what the hell the Holy Ghost is?

01-24-2002, 01:44 PM	#25
Foxhole Atheist Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Batavia, Ohio USA Posts: 180	“But will someone please explain what the hell the Holy Ghost is?” That is how Mary became inseminated. (no joke) “Man himself comes the closest, being simultaneously body and spirit but one man. This ultimately fails because the body dies.” and when man dies, so does the spirit.

01-25-2002, 03:07 AM	#27
Foxhole Atheist Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Batavia, Ohio USA Posts: 180	“Jesus' was resurrected in a "glorified" body, i.e., he was not constrained by physical laws of space or dimensionality. He does not exist "in heaven" in an earthly body, but he does (somehow) retain the "marks" of his crucifixion.” How do you know all this to be true?

01-25-2002, 11:59 AM	#28
fred pratt Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 72	C'mon, Theophilus, You must be able to do better than that. You assert that "Most of what is said about heaven is speculative and presumtious" [sic]. Do your own claims about heaven -- it's a "place", "...it is where God exists" -- fall outside that "most of what is said" qualification? And how about your generous enlightenment (and don't think I'm not appreciative) about Jesus and his "glorified" body after the resurrection? You know, the one "not constrained by physical laws of space or demensionality"? Is that also an esoteric revelation limited to a chosen few who are thereby not limited to speculation? But back to heaven for a moment. Speaking of Jesus, you allow that his earthly body "does not exist in heaven", despite clear biblical testimony confirming that indeed his earthly body ascended. Yes, at the tomb he admonished Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father, but he couldn't wait for poor Thomas to finger his wounds. What did he do, flip back and forth -- glorified/profane -- as the situation demanded? Did he eat glorified fish with his apostles on the shore of the lake? How were they all able to tell the glorified bass from the regular stuff? What does glorified bass taste like, chicken? Your assertion that Jesus "somehow" retains the "marks of his crucifixion" in heaven is about as fathomable as claiming certain knowledge of the colors of angel wing feathers, so I'll pass on it. Taken all together, I guess you must have a private line to the other world to be able to distinguish what you know from all that speculative and presumptuous propaganda the "uninformed" throw around. I wish I had the number... Best regards.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.