Sakpo

Note the word "usually." It modifies the meanings of other words. Furthermore, the quote in question did not state suicide is usually commited purely for self interest, it stated that suicide, in terms of self interest, is a poor choice in the long term (usually).

Sakpo

Just to be clear, are you arguing that suicide by a parents with dependant children is not bad or is less bad if they murder the child? (when no other mechanisms for the children to survive are unavailable)

I'd still say that's absolutely vile, disgusting...evil behaviour.

excreationist

Yeah I saw the word "usually"....

ok well sometimes my reading comprehension isn't very good.

So you mean people are usually better off (from a self-centered perspective) if they just keep on living...

Well it would eliminate their emotional trauma (assuming their deaths weren't traumatic).... but it would mean the loss of their potentially happy future lives and mean much more trauma for those who know of the murder-suicide. So overall it would be worse to kill the children.

joedad

That's my take. And in an ideal sense I'm addressing the future happiness of present lives and the happiness of actual future lives. That's worth living for.

A personal afterlife really does cheapen the value of present and future lives, human and not, maybe because a personal afterlife is a final life, with no chance or power to affect the future anymore. I think it's a selfish perspective to take on the whole of existence.

Surely you can see your own life in the lives of those that have lived and died, and with little effort you can project your own life into future lives. What's your vision of the future? And I know that sounds naive talking to someone who suffers from depression.

joe

excreationist

Well I can empathize to some extent with everyone though off hand I don't see much of *my* life in the lives of people like Bill Clinton.

And make a positive (or negative...) difference to the world I guess.

Well I guess you are talking about politics and maybe other things like charity. Well it would involve some gradual adjustments to things. Since I was put in a mental hospital for mania (having big ideas about things - and implementing those ideas) I have been less enthusiastic about the idea of near-utopias. You seem to be saying something like that I can create meaning in my life my making a positive difference to the world. I have tried things like that before... if I encounter too much resistance I give up (maybe due to boredom). At least I'm not too much of a fanatic about things (usually).

joedad

Well, you and even Bill Clinton share a common past and common ancestors. You're bound that way. In terms of human culture it appears we're preprogrammed to see others and other lives in a vertical sense, where we fit somewhere into a hierarchy. That's cultural. The larger reality, which includes human and other societies, is not vertical in any sense, if that's what you mean. You and Bill Clinton are proof that life is not fair, and that it comes with no guarantees. It is possible to get past the hopeless negativism that such an awareness might produce, however.Yes, but only to some degree. Don't look at it in extreme terms. The extremes of perfection and evil or anything don't exist as far as I can tell.I'm probably saying more the opposite, that you can make a positive difference in the world by seeing meaning in your own life. Once again, however, not having experienced your condition to the same extent, I'm sounding naive. But I see us empathizing.That's perfect! It's the emotional extremes, and to a lesser degree the extremists, that make life a bitch.

I think mental health can include accepting that life and meaning, or any two or more things actually, are only mutual to the degree that we make them. John Nash said that he escaped his paranoia and schitzophrenia because he "willed it." Obviously there was something organic happening, but I do however harbor the belief that we can "will" things to a degree.

joe

themistocles

It's a two way street, in this general case, the selfishness of others is only in competition with the selfishness of the "unwanted". The mere existence of a person is not of in itself a great detriment to society, it is their actions, which can also be neutral or positive to society in a greatly varied way. Also, suicide is the denial of any chance to accomplish anything, and so a person's suicide can never be without some negative effect.

Edwin

My view is that if you have no dependents and there is nobody who cares, suicide is not morally wrong - but still a very bad idea, like deciding to spend ten years hopping everywhere.

However, people do care, which makes it too complicated for me to think about it at 1:30am.

meritocrat

Suicide is the coward's way out (I think most in society would state that it is). I generally possess no sympathy for somebody who feels it's necessary to take their life without having the courage to solve a problem.

DRFseven

Do you even get what ex is saying, meritocrat? If he's being a coward, is a coward a negative thing to be?

Why don't you, meritocrat, go out and dig a twenty foot long ditch? Yes, it will be a lot of trouble, but are you too much of a coward to do it?