Celsus

Hi Volker,
Right, well Clara wrote:

• There's nothing non-political about any of the Abrahamic religions, either. An entire book could be written on "The Bible" as a political document as utilized by its original compiler, Constantine, alone. Prior to Constantine, there was no Bible as all the various scriptural writings were just...well...a motley collection of papers. Constantine and Council decided what went in and what stayed out, and good Roman that he was, included even the most trivial of Paul's scribblings while keeping no more than two memos by Peter.

Which seems to me to be referring solely to the NT. The Hebrew Bible was already in existence prior to that. Either way, it's a quibble. No matter.
What I wrote in the paragraph immediately after was what I think.
What are you talking about? Name the 5 scrolls then, omitting Deuteronomy. Make sure you've got 5 in total, since we're not talking about the Tetrateuch.
So in other words, you are employing circular reasoning--i.e. defining all actions as spiritual, and therefore all the stories of people's actions were spiritual, regardless of political side-effects or otherwise.
You do realise you're spouting nonsense here? What you are doing is claiming your interpretations as superior, based on nothing other than your declaration that these are the True Spiritual Meanings(tm) of the Pentateuch. Which of course, is nonsense. Myths of all cultures can be understood for their social and political uses, although you, by definition, define them as spiritual anyway. My guess for your reasons for doing so are thus: you think that the Old Testament, as an exceptionally old mythological source must therefore be of spiritual significance, which is why you must interpret the source for its esoteric spiritual meanings. I say they don't exist. Show me otherwise.
So? That does not make their interpretations in stories true. Why do you trust a bunch of ignorant superstitious Akkadians over ourselves, who've had several extra millenia to think about these things?
Ok, so? It proves nothing. A mythical story can be used for political ends, as the main example, the divine right of the formation of ancient Israel, is definitely within that category. It source need not matter. And perhaps Indian myths are derived from Sumerian?
You have no idea what the Gnostics believed, do you? I'm not discrediting ancient Jewish "scholars" (scribes). I'm saying that they can easily be understood in their own cultural and social milieu, and any spiritual interpretations made this late in history are clearly post hoc and of dubious merit.

Joel

Answerer

So is it right if I gather from Volker's responses that Moses and the Exodus are yet another myth?

Volker.Doormann

Maybe to you. Not to me.
Yes. And in that is Abraham mentioned.
You are right. I am wrong. As I have argued on the myths of the Pentateuch, which can be understood, I have not count this implementation of the Hammurabi code in that Deuteronomy to the Pentateuch. This implementation of the social law of Hammurabi is claimed as given from god is no myth; it’s a political claim.

But a naked creature in Genesis 2 seems to me not of political power. I’m interested only in the spiritual meaning of that symbols in the Pentateuch. Is a gan eden political? Is a tree of life a political? Are a river watering this gan eden political? Is a tree of life, which is given inmidst of this gan eden political?

Gen 2:9: "And the Lord of the gods has let grown trees ... tempting to contemplation ... and he put the 'Tree of Life' inmidst of the 'garden of joy' ... In the 'garden of joy' a river is flowing, to water it. This (process) is sequenced in four phases: The first phase is called Pishon, it means growing, increasing, enlarge. Then a circle shaped hole (Havilah) is 'comprised' (cabab). In the second phase something is 'bursting out' (Gihon). In the third phase something is 'moving' (halak) 'a step' 'rapidly' (Chiddqel) 'forwards' (qidmah) (Ashshuwr). In the fourth phase something is 'grow tired' or 'collapsing' or 'break down' (per-awth=EuPhrat)."

I do not see any political in this. Genesis is the way, something get into life. Two naked creatures of different sex are ever able to create life. Here you can learn by using symbols how this will be done.

This myth is taken from the the prolog of the Gigamesh Epos from about 2800 BCE:

"After heaven and earth had been separated and mankind had been created, after Anucircum, Enlil and Ereskigal had taken posesssion of heaven, earth and the underworld; after Enki had set sail for the underworld and the sea ebbed and flowed in honor of its lord; on this day, a huluppu tree which had been planted on the banks of the Euphrates and nourished by its waters was uprooted by the south wind and carried away by the Euphrates. A goddess who was wandering among the banks siezed the swaying tree And -- at the behest of Anu and Enlil -- brought it to Inanna's garden in Uruk. Inanna tended the tree carefully and lovingly she hoped to have a throne and a bed made for herself from its wood. After ten years, the tree had matured. But in the meantime, she found to her dismay that her hopes could not be fulfilled because during that time a dragon had built its nest at the foot of the tree the Zu-bird was raising its young in the crown, and the demon Lilith had built her house in the middle. But Gilgamesh, who had heard of Inanna's plight, came to her rescue. He took his heavy shield killed the dragon with his heavy bronze axe, which weighed seven talents and seven minas. Then the Zu-bird flew into the mountains with its young, while Lilith, petrified with fear, tore down her house and fled into the wilderness."

(1) Kramer, Samuel Noah. "Gilgamesh and the Huluppu-Tree: A reconstructed Sumerian Text." Assyriological Studies of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago 10. Chicago: 1938

What is a thron for a lovingly hoping woman? Politic?

Thank you all, Thank you Clara.

Volker

Volker.Doormann

I do not really understand your question. The biography of Moses is a myth taken from the legend of Sargon of Akkad. The Exodus is a parabel to symbol the freedom as soul - symbolized as Israel - from the bondage from the body (Egypt) and is taken from the Indian firstborn/twiceborn difference noticed in the Manusmriti codex.

THE LEGEND OF SARGON
[Ancient Near Eastern Texts 119]

Sargon, the mighty king, king of Agade, am I.
My mother was a changeling, my father I knew not.
The brother(s) of my father loved the hills.
My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates.
My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me.
She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed My lid.
She cast me into the river which rose not (over) me,
The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water.
Akki, the drawer of water lifted me out as he dipped his e[w]er.
Akki, the drawer of water, [took me] as his son (and) reared me.
Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener,
While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me (her) love,
And for four and [ ... ] years I exercised kingship,
The black-headed [people] I ruled, I gov[erned];
Mighty [moun]tains with chip-axes of bronze I conquered,
The upper ranges I scaled,
The lower ranges I [trav]ersed,
The sea [lan]ds three times I circled.
Dilmun my [hand] cap[tured],
[To] the great Der I [went up], I [. . . ],
[ . . . ] I altered and [. . .].
Whatever king may come up after me,
[. . .]
Let him r[ule, let him govern] the black-headed [peo]ple;
[Let him conquer] mighty [mountains] with chip-axe[s of bronze],
[Let] him scale the upper ranges,
[Let him traverse the lower ranges],
Let him circle the sea [lan]ds three times!
[Dilmun let his hand capture],
Let him go up [to] the great Der and [. . . ]!
[. . .] from my city, Aga[de ... ]
[. . . ] . . . [. . .].
(Remainder broken away.)

Source: From: George A. Barton, Archaeology and The Bible, 3rd Ed., (Philadelphia: American Sunday-School Union, 1920), p. 310. Scanned by: J. S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton. Prof. Arkenberg has modernized the text.

Dilmun is the Sumerian gan eden or garden of joy: "The first known account of a paradisial garden appears on a cuneiform tablet from ancient Sumer. Here we learn of the mythical place called Dilmun, a pure, clean, bright place where sickness, violence, and old age do not exist. At first this paradise lacks only one thing: water. Dilmun, however, is a paradise for the gods alone and not for human beings, although one learns that Ziusudra (= Utnapishtim, the Sumerian counterpart of Noah) was exceptionally admitted to the divine garden." (Encyclopedia of Archetypal Symbolism)

Volker

Baidarka

Volker

“I have not count this implementation of the Hammurabi code in that Deuteronomy to the Pentateuch. This implementation of the social law of Hammurabi is claimed as given from god is no myth; it’s a political claim.”
I think that you are now taking the position that there are some political agendas being served by some parts of the Bible. If this is the case then we are in agreement since I never took the position that the entire Bible was written to serve a political agenda. Since we now seem to be somewhat in agreement when it comes to Deuteronomy are there any other points that we can agree on.
Can we agree that God’s land grant to Abraham’s progeny served a practical purpose for an ancient regime?
I do not disagree with your belief that there is much to be learned in comparing the OT myths with the myths of their neighbors.
It is true that Astrology seemed to play an important role in the development of Judaism. Mosaic Zodiacs found on the floors of early synagogues, Astrological writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and possible Astrological symbolism in the Genesis myths (for instance Jacob and Esau can be seen as an echo of Gemini, Joseph’s dream of the bowing stars seems to be an obvious astrological reference). I think that this is historically significant and can be useful in broadening our ability to understand these myths and the culture that produced them.
I think that Astrology is important in that it really enabled people to predict the future astronomical events with some precision and helped us progress in the development of astronomy and mathematics (Isaac Newton is said to have studied Mathematics in order to understand a very difficult Astrology book).
“Astrology is an art and a science and gives knowledge to spiritual laws. This spiritual laws were known by some special ancient magicians, but not by the secular and social acting Jewish scholars. Knowing the meaning of the twelve astrological houses is that, what is equal to that, what is to be found as fragments as the twelve houses of Israel in the bible. It is meant, that if one is free of this causality, he is free from any bondage in this social world. Jews often have stated, that 'Israel is free from the zodiac, but if Israel is falling back from the spiritual, Israel will underlying these forces again.'”
Your belief in the efficacy of Astrology as a meaningful system for understanding the world is totally naïve.
Although I enjoy the Art and information that you have put together in your research I am simply perplexed by your enigmatic beliefs and magical thinking.
BTW I think that an “Astrology in the Bible” thread might be in order and I invite you to start it.

“I see that you do not reply on any of my arguments in any way third time.”
I am sorry but I really don’t understand your arguments.


Clara Listensprechen

“Prior to Constantine, there was no Bible as all the various scriptural writings were just...well...a motley collection of papers.”

I know that Celsus has already addressed this but are you referring to the NT only?
As I’m sure you know the entire OT except for Esther was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You have given us a breath taking swaths of history.
Could you now relate this back to the effect this had on the editing of the Bible and the reasons for the decisions that were made.
Why do you think that the Nag Hammadi Library had to be buried? Why were the competing Christianities rejected? What were issues as you see them?


”2) Shem, father of the Semites, which Zionist Jews proclaim is a term that refers only to the Jews when in fact it also is the ethnic description of non-Jew Arabs regardless of their religion. A lot of people have great difficulty to the point of denial that Judaism is a religion and Semitism is in reference to an ethnicity. Two separate things. YES I am painfully aware of a certain erroneous definition of the term that is found in Western dictionaries. The error remains, nonetheless.”

I didn’t mean to start a semantic argument about the meaning of the term Semite. I think that Genesis is pretty clear in listing all the peoples that Shem was purported to be Father of. Both Isaac and Ishmael are recognized to be sons of Abraham, are there fore both considered Semites and are believed to be the Fathers of Jews and Arabs. Who are these Zionists that you refer to? I believe that perhaps you are referring to the fact that the term anti-semite is somewhat of a misnomer in that so many semitic Arabs who are anti-Jew are accused of being anti-semites.




”7) Oh, this is a good 'un and I can tell you why. Already have hinted at it indirectly insofar as all those scribblings of Paul the Roman Constable What Was A Pharisee found so much favor in the first compilation called The Bible. However, the NT hints at it a good number of times, and rather blatantly when Jesus is accounted in his encounter with Simon The Zealot. Also during the trial, the charges of heading a rival kingdom to that of Rome. Many, many others...the Freedman Synagogue mentioned in Acts ("freedmen" were Roman slaves that were later freed by the Romans but still considered lower class citizens. That one in the Palestine area was built by a Venitian, per earliear archaeology). No preacher is gonna clue you or anybody in to the political significance of a lot of the terms and references in the NT, so you have to do your own reading about the details.”

You’ve lost me here but this sounds quite interesting perhaps you could expand on this topic and go into a little more detail.


”8) Why was Pilate whitewashed? He was a Roman. Duh.”

When do you think that the Jewish messianic cult became a “new Age” Greek/ Roman cult and how did this effect the editing of the final NT?
Do you think that the genealogies of Jesus are embarrassing Jewish anachronisms that could not be eliminated but needed editorial tweaking to make them more acceptable to the new Roman/Greek half God myth.

I enjoy your breezy style and look forward to reading more of your enlightening expositions.


Celsus

“And the answer is plenty. It gave them a "God-given" right to a land that they were trying to secure (see Judges, Samuel, etc.). It gives legendary accounts of how places and people came to be known as they were. It unites the Hebrew tribes under an all-conquering god, and quite likely harmonises differing traditions of various myths. And if that weren't all, Josiah (probably) used/wrote Deuteronomy to centralise cultic worship in Judah, and through centralisation came greater control over a rather disparate nation. There are political motives (or to be precise, etiological uses) to be found in all the myths of the pentateuch. There may or may not be an underlying history to the stories, but the fact is, at the time they approximated their present form, there were plenty of agendas that were neatly solved by the formation of the Pentateuch, and probably plenty more reasons for the original myths which are now lost to us.”

Thank You for clarifying some of the issues I have been trying to raise. How can we proceed from here? Perhaps this issue is too broad in that it covers too wide an expanse. Do you think that we could start a thread dealing with a more modest political issue coming from one particular source?
I think that we are dealing with the strange phenomenon that it is sometimes hard to see different aspects of a thing simultaneously. The image of the goblet made out of the space between two profiles. If the Bible is God’s Magic it can not be seen to be generated by trivial mundane political concerns.
What do you think might be the most interesting aspect of this discussion?

Volker.Doormann

I do write in this forum because I read that biblical text and archaeology to challenge and illuminate the stories therein are be discussed. Doing this includes, that persons post relating arguments to this. But it doesn't mean, that persons, who post this arguments are to be discussed. I do not think that truth can be found in persons and I do not think that arguments are to be disproved by discussing persons.

Volker

Answerer

Hey guys, since Volker is so bent on believing that the every stories in the Torah are myths(including the most famous story of Moses and his Exdous), why should we so eager to prove him wrong?

Lets leave the task of disproving to those hard-core christians who always claimed that the Bible does not have myths.

Baidarka

Volker
I am sorry if you were insulted by my last post. I enjoyed your web site even if I don’t understand it. I thought that you brought some very interesting information to the plural Gods discussion. I even have enjoyed trying to decipher your strange and enigmatic posts about the crime of hiding the “True” astrological significance of the Pentateuch.
I am a very blunt fellow and not a very good diplomat. One of my favorite Painters was a man named Alfred Jensen (If you do a search on that name you will find that he was a kindred spirit)his paintings are filled with arcane astrology, numerology, ciphers, magic. I do believe that poetic spirituality is a very good source for Art, but I know that Magic is fantasy and I can not keep silent for long on this subject. Astrology is an old obsolete system invented by people who believed the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it. They had no idea how far the sun, the moon, the planets, and stars are from earth. They had no idea what the heavenly bodies are or what they are made of. I lived through the 1960s a time when every introduction was accompanied by the query “what sign are you?” My statement about astrology is a general statement of my position on the subject and is not a personal attack against you.

Volker.Doormann

Baidarka
That is you, that is your reality, and that is in no way a problem. The very problematic point is, if you attack a person to prove it's arguments wrong. You teach the world, that I as person is provable and recognizable naiv, which should prove implicit, that my arguments can not be serious. I'm sure Mageth can lecture some 100 pages stuff on that acting known as ad hominem argument.
Baidarka
You say you have a position. I think it is of some meaning, whether a position does refer on truth, reality, nature, facts, knowledge etc, or is a self created phantom, an opinion, a belief, a swimming in a mainstream, superficial knowledge etc.

I do astrology for 40 years now, and it is not my aim to lecture on it. But I like to demonstrate you, the value of your position. I have numbered your statements with lower case letters in parenthesis.

(a) A system, in that the flat surface of the earth from a viewers point in horizon direction along the whole azimuth of 360° of the sky globe is an old but nevertheless a very present astronomical convention , to measure p.e. stars position in the horizontal system. The corresponding name of this value is 'height'. If one is measuring this height between the flat horizon plane and the star above this flat plane exact at noon, the one can calculate the latitude of the viewer positions using some math and tables.
(b) Stars, which was moving on the sky was called planets. Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The viewable traces of the several planets in relation to the fixed stars, were complicated, some planets were moving sometimes forward and sometimes backward in relation to the fixed stars. This moving of the astronomical positions of the planets from Mercury to Saturn is caused by the moving earth on the ecliptic plane.
So one can measure at specific times p.e. two planets in the same direction, because the point of view is a location on the earth, which is moving in time. This viewing system is called geocentric system, and each astronomer, who do not see the sky objects out from the sun is using this geocentric system to measure planetary positions in this geocentric coordinate system. No astronomer did use a heliocentric (view) system, because the planets are moving around sun, while the sun has no priority in gravitational forces; it has only a high mass.
(c) As it is well known, that orient means east, the ascending object in the east has a great meaning in astrology. It is the angle which measure an object from horizon - above or below - along the ecliptic, which has an astrological meaning.
(d). Because the astrological quality which can be identified by evidence of birth chart statistics with that moving planets as blue notes or harmonic/disharmonic accords in music can be identified with frequence ratios, there is no need to know about the material composition in whole or in detail.

Summery: It is irrelevant for astrology, whether an Earth is flat or not. Relevant is a flat horizon dived the 4pi space in two quadrants above the flat horizon of the viewer (or birth) position and in two quadrants below a flat horizon of the viewer (or birth) position. The angles on each sides of that flat horizon measure ever 180° along a globe great circle. This spherical trigonometry using straight lines from a center of a sky globe does not make astrology obsolete, because astrology deals with angles from a center of a 4pi space of a space globe; The shape of the earth is irrelevant in this context. Same is valid for (b). Only the geocentric point of view on a location on earth of a viewer or born creature is relevant for astrology; not which motion has the sun in relation to the planets. BTW. This motion is also only a relative motion; related to the stars of our galaxy, the sun system is moving as an accelerated mass system. Same is valid for (c) . Because astrology deals only with angles and never with distances, distances are irrelevant for astrology. Evidence in solving the discrete spiritual quality of a planet by some 6000 years statistic, there is no dependence of knowing the material composition of a planet.

I do - and each astrologer does - astrology without knowing the (a) shape of earth, without the knowledge about a (b) heliocentric sun system, without the knowledge of (c) planetary distances, and without the knowledge of the (d) material composition of the planets.

You say you have a position. And you say 'My statement about astrology is a general statement of my position on the subject ...' .

Well. The point is, that your statement ' Astrology is an old obsolete system' is based your personal imagine in mind, that your points do interfere with astrology. But as I have stated and shown in short, these your points do not interfere with astrology in no way. I have said. "I think it is of some meaning, whether a position does refer on truth, reality, nature, facts, knowledge etc, or is a self created phantom, an opinion, a belief, a swimming in a mainstream, superficial knowledge etc.".

I think it is no problem if one has not a competent knowledge in a science or matter. But if there are no competent knowledge then to have a (personal) position is of no worth. I think one can have a personal position to his own things; but to have a position about reality, facts, or nature is senseless. In the end it may also that a position is based on belief only. But I don't know.

In this forum it is often stated, that nothing others then facts, proofs, or evidence is relevant and belief that lacks all that reality is not used. I think this is a very good aim. I do not need to be certified as person. I have no theory. I'm nothing. I'm unimportant. Who cares about persons? There are arguments written, facts named and hints given to illuminate the dark environment of the bible. That should be the relevant points for a discussion.

Volker

Volker.Doormann

Baidarka
Greg Killian has collected some stuff relating astrology in the bible. I have mirrored his article on doormann.org/mazzarot.htm . I do not agree with most of the tries matching signs and sons of Jacob, but it gives an impression and a scope where to read.

Astrology and Astrologers are damned in the OT. Like the damnation of woman because of simple social power claims of males without any religious reasons the knowledge of astrologers was too dangerous for the Jewish scholars about 1000 B.C.E. (Julian/Gregorian calendar) and inclusive all symbols and sculptures of Venus (=Astarte from which the star got it's name = Ester) equal to Ashera or Inanna (Sumerian Venus) the whole science od astrology was distorted and burned - search for Ashera in the OT.

The one very interesting point is, that this damnation 3000 years ago is still in effect as you can see with your position. Like reincarnation, which is anathematized by Christ's successfully inclusive Origen, no one ask unbiased for it.

The other interesting point is: If astrology would be really a hoax, then there would be no real danger to the power of social commanding Jewish scholars. If astrology would be a hoax, no one of any reason would work with that for some dacades.

'If one argues, that he do not belief in astrology, it doesn't matter. It works well without any not belief support.'

Volker