Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 05-19-2003, 10:41 AM

Lightning stopped for a while anyway so back again------

No more posts from Opera Nut. Is he satisfied with what I posted ? I doubt that. Who knows really? Maybe so.

I sure hope he does not "off" himself. None of this is that important anyway.

Hey Opera Nut-----------Christians love you. That is a given for true Christians. Atheists love you also in their own way.

Look at it this way-----------flat out everybody loves you. And nobody on this forum wants you to "off" yourself.

Rational BAC · 05-19-2003, 10:47 AM

Whoops ----------

Lightning striking again.

Have to shut it down

Later-----------

Opera Nut · 05-19-2003, 11:44 AM

Rational, thank you for your posts. Second of all, I am a SHE. I have been female for all of my 48 years on earth.

You say you are an Anglican. I understand the difference between the mainline, educated Prot churches such as U.C.C.-Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, some Methodists, and the fundies who are uneducated literalists.

I was raised in the Presbyterian church. I got my Bachelor's degree at a highly regarded Presbyterian college and I thoroughly enjoyed my religion classes. They were taught by true scholars who were serious ancient language types who had gone to Harvard and Princeton. I have a lot of respect for the educated protestants, especially the Presbyterians and am glad I was raised around them instead of the fundies. The Episcopalians and the Presbyterians have the highest income levels and the highest educational levels of any Christians. I used to go to a Methodist church that was actually "smells & bells"high church. I sang in the choir and the minister did plainchant and our responses were in Anglican (four part) chant. I enjoyed the variety of music. The minister later left and became an Episcopalian minister. No surprise there.

However, as I have said twice before, Jesus has not spoken to me or anything, so any form of Christianity is irrelevant to me. I have not had that subjective experience we talked about. No change of heart, no visions, no feeling of guidance from God. I have "trusted Jesus" etc., and NOTHING HAPPENED. I have been trying to get that through your head. I have stated that twice above.

I went to a fundie church because I was tired of the emotional sterility of the mainstream protestant churches. However that backfired with some serious angry control freak preachers who love to scare people.

I do not go to church and I do not commune with God on my own. God has not spoken to me, given me any guidance thru my heart or my feelings or anything. Nothing has changed so I have abandoned my quest within Christianity as I consider it to be a cruel farce for people like me who have not had that Jesus experience happen.

The world is a random and scary place. I still think it's random and scary. I'm still an atheist and checking out Mahayana Buddhism. You can be an atheist and a Buddhist too.
My secular humanist values and beliefs have not changed; they withstood my experience with Christianity which was extremely negative. So I am back to where I was before I became a Christian.

Rational BAC · 05-19-2003, 04:59 PM

Opera Nut--

Sorry that it seemed like I assumed you were a man. Was using "he" generically in the old traditional sense. -----plus I am a little lazy and don't take the time to type he/she many times.

I guess I glossed over too much what you were saying about Christianity needing to be an emotional experience. -----that one have some sort of very emotional epiphany in one's lifetime to really be a Christian.

I have never really felt the necessity of that in order to call myself and think of myself as a Christian. Actually I did have one of those experiences during a very difficult time in my life. But I never considered that to be a very necessary part of my Christianity.

If that (an emotional experience) is what you think is necessary for you to be a Christian, then I can understand why you would be very disappointed. But none of that negates Christianity at all for me.

As I said before, the Christian fundamentalists, I think, are making a mountain out of a molehill with this born again business. All baptized Christians are born again---at least in a technical way---and cannot be deprived salvation.

IMHO

Sabine Grant · 05-19-2003, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Opera Nut--------

First of all you have been going to the wrong Christian churches. Not all are fundamentalist Christian you know. Most are not.

2nd of all--------you do not have to go to any organized church at all to be a Christian. Personally, the idea that "2 or more together" means 1000's and millions in an organized church with a hierarchy and people "above you" telling you what Christianity has to mean for you. ----------is bogus.

"2 or more" to me means 3 or 4 (or maybe a little more than that---but not much more)

Forget organized Christianity. At times to me, it seems that "organizing" such a personal concept may be even blasphemous.

If you really want an "organized" Church to belong to -------I would recommend the Episcopal church, at least a "high" Episcopal Church.

The nice thing about Episcopalians is that from their Anglican tradition they do look at things from an intellectual angle and not an emotional one.

We really can't help it. Our church came about because Henry VIII had the hots for Anne Boleyn and wanted some young nooky------so Anglicans and Episcopalians question EVERYTHING.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

PS --- Got to get off the 'puter. Bad electrical storm coming Tampa Bay area way and don't want to "toast" anything.

Later--------

Bonsoir mon copain.... ... I have a fond memory of an episcopalian priest who led a tiny church in South East Ga. I attended that church with my family for about a year or so. When my son was born , Mac, came to visit us in the hospital... he simply held Gabe and prayed silently over him. A few weeks earlier, he held a tiny girl who was a trisomy baby as her mother ( a nurse) decided to take her off life support and allow nature to take its place. She layed in his arms and died right there in the warmth of his hands.
He held both life and death equaly with the same acceptance.

By the way... I agree with the rest of your comments on organized religion.

Big storms yes... Riverview is just about to get hit. But dinner and hubby home is what call me to close for tonight.

Bonsoir a tous!

Opera Nut · 05-19-2003, 05:10 PM

Well, I'm glad you are a reasonable Episcopalian instead of a whacked out fundie. I'm in Texas and that's pretty bad as far as fundies, although not quite as bad as Oklahoma and some of the Deep South (the Third World Gulf Coast, as I call it).

Apparently from what I have heard they don't have any reasonable educated Prots in Oklahoma, just bible thumping fundies.

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05-19-2003, 10:41 AM	#41
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Lightning stopped for a while anyway so back again------ No more posts from Opera Nut. Is he satisfied with what I posted ? I doubt that. Who knows really? Maybe so. I sure hope he does not "off" himself. None of this is that important anyway. Hey Opera Nut-----------Christians love you. That is a given for true Christians. Atheists love you also in their own way. Look at it this way-----------flat out everybody loves you. And nobody on this forum wants you to "off" yourself.

05-19-2003, 10:47 AM	#42
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Whoops ---------- Lightning striking again. Have to shut it down Later-----------

05-19-2003, 11:44 AM	#43
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Rational, thank you for your posts. Second of all, I am a SHE. I have been female for all of my 48 years on earth. You say you are an Anglican. I understand the difference between the mainline, educated Prot churches such as U.C.C.-Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, some Methodists, and the fundies who are uneducated literalists. I was raised in the Presbyterian church. I got my Bachelor's degree at a highly regarded Presbyterian college and I thoroughly enjoyed my religion classes. They were taught by true scholars who were serious ancient language types who had gone to Harvard and Princeton. I have a lot of respect for the educated protestants, especially the Presbyterians and am glad I was raised around them instead of the fundies. The Episcopalians and the Presbyterians have the highest income levels and the highest educational levels of any Christians. I used to go to a Methodist church that was actually "smells & bells"high church. I sang in the choir and the minister did plainchant and our responses were in Anglican (four part) chant. I enjoyed the variety of music. The minister later left and became an Episcopalian minister. No surprise there. However, as I have said twice before, Jesus has not spoken to me or anything, so any form of Christianity is irrelevant to me. I have not had that subjective experience we talked about. No change of heart, no visions, no feeling of guidance from God. I have "trusted Jesus" etc., and NOTHING HAPPENED. I have been trying to get that through your head. I have stated that twice above. I went to a fundie church because I was tired of the emotional sterility of the mainstream protestant churches. However that backfired with some serious angry control freak preachers who love to scare people. I do not go to church and I do not commune with God on my own. God has not spoken to me, given me any guidance thru my heart or my feelings or anything. Nothing has changed so I have abandoned my quest within Christianity as I consider it to be a cruel farce for people like me who have not had that Jesus experience happen. The world is a random and scary place. I still think it's random and scary. I'm still an atheist and checking out Mahayana Buddhism. You can be an atheist and a Buddhist too. My secular humanist values and beliefs have not changed; they withstood my experience with Christianity which was extremely negative. So I am back to where I was before I became a Christian.

05-19-2003, 04:59 PM	#44
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Opera Nut-- Sorry that it seemed like I assumed you were a man. Was using "he" generically in the old traditional sense. -----plus I am a little lazy and don't take the time to type he/she many times. I guess I glossed over too much what you were saying about Christianity needing to be an emotional experience. -----that one have some sort of very emotional epiphany in one's lifetime to really be a Christian. I have never really felt the necessity of that in order to call myself and think of myself as a Christian. Actually I did have one of those experiences during a very difficult time in my life. But I never considered that to be a very necessary part of my Christianity. If that (an emotional experience) is what you think is necessary for you to be a Christian, then I can understand why you would be very disappointed. But none of that negates Christianity at all for me. As I said before, the Christian fundamentalists, I think, are making a mountain out of a molehill with this born again business. All baptized Christians are born again---at least in a technical way---and cannot be deprived salvation. IMHO

05-19-2003, 05:10 PM	#46
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Well, I'm glad you are a reasonable Episcopalian instead of a whacked out fundie. I'm in Texas and that's pretty bad as far as fundies, although not quite as bad as Oklahoma and some of the Deep South (the Third World Gulf Coast, as I call it). Apparently from what I have heard they don't have any reasonable educated Prots in Oklahoma, just bible thumping fundies.

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