Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 11-08-2002, 10:19 PM

Gurdur,

Quote:

I am fascinated by your catagorical dismissal as it is put in theory.

What have I dismissed? You stated that there is no difference between disrespecting a person and disrespecting a belief that they hold. I provided a counterexample, and thusly showed that your statement was false.

Quote:

If you despise a person's beliefs, actually hold them in contempt, then at some stage you must show that person your opinion, if you have any kind of real relationship with that person, and if you are honest.

Agreed.

Quote:

BTW, "contempt" and "disrespect" are not the same thing as "profoundly disagree".

Agreed.

Quote:

If you then show that person contempt about their beliefs, quite often they will feel under personal attack, since often they emotionally identify with their beliefs.

Not necessarily. All of the xians that I associate with (including my parents and my graduate advisor) are keenly aware of my distaste for their religious beliefs, yet I am able to have a good son/parent relationship with my parents, and a good student/advisor relationship with my advisor.

Quote:

Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.

Do you enjoy hurling petty insults around?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 11-08-2002, 10:21 PM

agapeo,

Quote:

What merits respect for any individual?

That is a good question. I suspect the answer that you'll get will be a function of the individual that you ask.

Quote:

If you respect them on the basis of how they behave then don't you essentially respect what they believe?

Not at all. One of the reasons that I respect my graduate advisor is because he is a brilliant mathematician, but I do not respect his religious beliefs in the slightest.

Sincerely,

Goliath

(edited for clarity)

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]

Goliath · 11-08-2002, 10:27 PM

Starboy,

Quote:

When you think about it, the parallels to the Nazis and Red Communists is frightening.

A very good point. Sometimes, when I lie awake in my bed at night, I wonder whether or not xians will start to march atheists to death camps by the tens of thousands before the 21st century is over.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Queen of Swords · 11-09-2002, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by agapeo:
If you respect them on the basis of how they behave then don't you essentially respect what they believe?

Let me use an actual example here - my mother. She encouraged me to be independent and to have a career which made me plenty of money. She was a Catholic at the time. Her encouragement therefore had very little to do with her religion (except perhaps the plenty of money part) and therefore, I can respect her without having any respect for Catholicism.

Oxymoron · 11-09-2002, 02:16 AM

I'd question the 'harmlessness' of certain belief systems. If there's one thing that human beings are particularly bad at, it's predicting what the consequences of their actions are. Examples:

(1) smokers (and this is personal experience as an ex-smoker) don't just "weigh up the risks" (if they even do that), they actually believe that they won't get something fatal or seriously debilitating. Sadly, these beliefs are overwhelmingly wrong.

(2) when we travel by air, we pollute with CO2 and other nasties as well as stimulating cirrus clouds which have a measurable effect on temperature (after 9/11 there were fewer flights and there was a growth of 3C in the USA's temperature extremes). Yet air travel increases every year.

Two attitudes prevail in this: that "it won't happen to me"; or "whatever I do is so inconsequential that it can't possibly make a difference" (forgetting that a zillion other people are reasoning likewise).
Now, let's focus on religious beliefs. All of them rely on "faith", a belief that is "true because I want it to be" (or someone else told me so or a book said so). The result: a culture whereby arbitrary beliefs are held in reverence; a free-for-all system that has allowed, nay encouraged racism (remember slavery?), sexism (most religions are paternalistic. I was outraged at the recent events in Saudi Arabia where a primary school burnt down and the police refused to allow the girls out because they weren't suitably attired), plain hate crime (remember witch burning?). Why? Because people were encouraged to believe things that made them feel better about themselves and were unwilling or unable to see the consequences of those beliefs.

So I say: disrepect all forms of faith-based belief - xianity, islam, UFO's, ESP, paganism. They are the problem, not the solution. As for the individuals caught in their grip, they have every right to believe what they want so long as it hurts no human or animal or institution, but the onus of proof of harmlessness should be on the believer and the evidence to the contrary is damning.

Heathen Dawn · 11-09-2002, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:

Why should atheists respect any religious belief whatsoever?

Freedom to hold a religion (and not to hold a religion at all, of course) is a basic democratic tenet of Secular Humanism, which I believe most atheists ascribe to. I did not say "respect the belief itself" - that can't be done, I really don't respect such a ridiculous belief as Hellenismos or Religio Romana in our day and age. I meant "respect the right to hold the belief", because it is a democratic tenet. And of course, democracy should defend itself, so that any religion that threatens to overthrow democracy, such as fundamentalist Christianity and Islam, should not be respected at all.

Religious philosophies are divided into three sorts: the true one (metaphyiscal naturalism), the harmless (paganism, Sikhism, liberal Christianity and most of them) and the cancerous-dualistic (fundamentalist Christianity and Islam). Metaphysical Naturalism forms the basis of all law (democratic Secular Humanism); harmless religions are tolerated (as long as they don't contradict Secular Humanism in their actions, that is), and cancerous-dualistic religions should be stamped out.

11-09-2002, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Why should atheists respect the beliefs of xians?

We shouldn't, and I don't.

Starboy · 11-09-2002, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oxymoron:
So I say: disrepect all forms of faith-based belief - xianity, islam, UFO's, ESP, paganism. They are the problem, not the solution. As for the individuals caught in their grip, they have every right to believe what they want so long as it hurts no human or animal or institution, but the onus of proof of harmlessness should be on the believer and the evidence to the contrary is damning.

HEAR HEAR OXYMORON! Well said. Based on its history Christianity should be banned.

Starboy

lisarea · 11-09-2002, 08:59 AM

I was raised to be respectful to religious people, in much the way I was raised to be respectful of demented old men and schizophrenics.

It is only recently, though, that I've really begun to try to make a change in the way I treat religious proselytizers and the like.

I used to smile politely and tell various preachers that I simply wasn't interested. If they insisted that I pray for enlightenment, I'd say, "Oh, OK," in that wonderfully tolerant way that we might assure Grandpa that we'd inform the authorities that Generalissimo Francisco Franco was living next door. And I'd thank those who called me a good Christian in the way I'd thank a crazy homeless person for giving me a talisman against the chupacabra or something.

But to hell with that. It just encourages them.

I will continue to respect their right to delude themselves in any way they choose, but I do not respect, in the traditional sense, their beliefs, nor do I concede their right to spout their nonsense unchallenged.

Hugo Holbling · 11-09-2002, 09:07 AM

Gurdur wrote:

Quote:

Or, of course, you can loudly trumpet just how silly they are, and how their beliefs are a load of junk, all without any real pressing need, and then get all surprised when atheists are perceived as a bunch of supremacist egotistical jerks, and when the ineviatable backlash happens, you can cry yourself to sleep with just how unfairly you are "persecuted".

I think you're wasting your time here, Gurdur. Look:

Quote:

Originally posted by Oxymoron: As for the individuals caught in their grip, they have every right to believe what they want so long as it hurts no human or animal or institution, but the onus of proof of harmlessness should be on the believer and the evidence to the contrary is damning.

11-09-2002, 01:03 AM	#24
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by agapeo: <strong>If you respect them on the basis of how they behave then don't you essentially respect what they believe?</strong> Let me use an actual example here - my mother. She encouraged me to be independent and to have a career which made me plenty of money. She was a Catholic at the time. Her encouragement therefore had very little to do with her religion (except perhaps the plenty of money part) and therefore, I can respect her without having any respect for Catholicism.

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11-09-2002, 02:16 AM	#25
Oxymoron Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: http://10.0.0.2/ Posts: 6,623	I'd question the 'harmlessness' of certain belief systems. If there's one thing that human beings are particularly bad at, it's predicting what the consequences of their actions are. Examples: (1) smokers (and this is personal experience as an ex-smoker) don't just "weigh up the risks" (if they even do that), they actually believe that they won't get something fatal or seriously debilitating. Sadly, these beliefs are overwhelmingly wrong. (2) when we travel by air, we pollute with CO2 and other nasties as well as stimulating cirrus clouds which have a measurable effect on temperature (after 9/11 there were fewer flights and there was a growth of 3C in the USA's temperature extremes). Yet air travel increases every year. Two attitudes prevail in this: that "it won't happen to me"; or "whatever I do is so inconsequential that it can't possibly make a difference" (forgetting that a zillion other people are reasoning likewise). Now, let's focus on religious beliefs. All of them rely on "faith", a belief that is "true because I want it to be" (or someone else told me so or a book said so). The result: a culture whereby arbitrary beliefs are held in reverence; a free-for-all system that has allowed, nay encouraged racism (remember slavery?), sexism (most religions are paternalistic. I was outraged at the recent events in Saudi Arabia where a primary school burnt down and the police refused to allow the girls out because they weren't suitably attired), plain hate crime (remember witch burning?). Why? Because people were encouraged to believe things that made them feel better about themselves and were unwilling or unable to see the consequences of those beliefs. So I say: disrepect all forms of faith-based belief - xianity, islam, UFO's, ESP, paganism. They are the problem, not the solution. As for the individuals caught in their grip, they have every right to believe what they want so long as it hurts no human or animal or institution, but the onus of proof of harmlessness should be on the believer and the evidence to the contrary is damning.

11-09-2002, 08:59 AM	#29
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	I was raised to be respectful to religious people, in much the way I was raised to be respectful of demented old men and schizophrenics. It is only recently, though, that I've really begun to try to make a change in the way I treat religious proselytizers and the like. I used to smile politely and tell various preachers that I simply wasn't interested. If they insisted that I pray for enlightenment, I'd say, "Oh, OK," in that wonderfully tolerant way that we might assure Grandpa that we'd inform the authorities that Generalissimo Francisco Franco was living next door. And I'd thank those who called me a good Christian in the way I'd thank a crazy homeless person for giving me a talisman against the chupacabra or something. But to hell with that. It just encourages them. I will continue to respect their right to delude themselves in any way they choose, but I do not respect, in the traditional sense, their beliefs, nor do I concede their right to spout their nonsense unchallenged.

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