Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RawData · 03-28-2003, 02:43 PM

Ok, in the Washington State government, 2 people walked out on an Islamic invocation. Now I am curious how many would walk out on an Atheist. I think I shall be asking the local Atheist community to find a good speaker to try it...
Just probing the depths of discrimination in my state (the one with the lowest percentage of church goers).:banghead:

RD

CALDONIA · 03-28-2003, 02:56 PM

RawData,

Now I know why I find Seattle such a fun city to visit!

nj_heathens · 03-29-2003, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy
They didn't just object to it. Councilman Robert George openly mocked it.

Quote:

"He has a right to speak, and I have a right to walk out," he said. "He can worship a chicken if he wants to, but I'm not going to be around when he does it."

"Don't be silly, Bob. Atheists don't worship chickens. That would be the Voodoo High Priestess we've invited for next week."

Mrs. Heathen

KidFury · 03-29-2003, 05:26 AM

I am curious,

What is an invocation? is it like being called on to say Grace at dinner? Because it seems to me the last thing I would want to do...

I live in canada so maybe i am not familiar with the practice

Jewel · 03-29-2003, 07:14 AM

Somehow I do not find this one bit surprising. The folks that walked out were acting childish and it speaks volumes about their character.:banghead: :banghead:

Shake · 03-31-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theyeti
Invocation by atheist prompts walkout in Charleston

Anyway, I think it's cool that Silverman stood up like this. And I think it's sad that some council members walked out, but I doubt they'll gain anything from that politically. Charleston is quite liberal by South Carolina standards, which I realize isn't saying much. Unfortunately, this article is truncated and lacks a really good quote from Silverman that appeared in the local paper today. Basically he talked about how atheists are the only group for whom it's still okay to descriminate against.

theyeti

Probably one of the big reasons Charleston is "quite liberal" by SC standards is the large numbers of non-native Charlestonians that settle there. I was brought to the Holy City care of Uncle Sam at CAFB. It was surprising how few of the people that I met who actually lived there were from even the state, nevermind the region. There are just as many Bible-thumpers in the Lowcountry as the rest of the state, but the concentration is a lot lower in Chas. due to large numbers of military retirees and Yankees seeking to avoid snow!

There was an excellent piece about Silverman in the P&C (a Sunday profile ... the only one I've seen who wasn't some sort of theist) back in '98, which discussed his fight to become a notary public (there had been a requirement to profess some Faith, which he fought and won), his being an atheist and other things. A week or two later, there was huge outpouring of letters to the editor ... most were upset that the paper had published this profile about someone who didn't believe in God. There was only one or two letters that were in any way positive towards him. It just showed you how ignorant and unaccepting people there still were. I'm sure if you check the P&C, you'll find some more of this soon (if it hasn't come up already). Here is the text of a letter printed in response to Prof. Silverman's attack on posting of the 10C:

Quote:

Ten Commandments
Herb Silverman has once again seized the opportunity to vent his atheistic views in his tirade against the Ten Commandments in his letter to the editor in the April 28 issue of The Post and Courier.
I do agree with Mr. Silverman that much of what is included in the Ten Commandments existed long before Moses was given these commandments; eg. murder was condemned when Cain killed Abel.
If God did indeed create the universe, which I believe and Mr. Silverman does not believe, then I submit God has a right to be offended (jealous) if He is not given due respect.
Mr. Silverman cited the reference in the bible, Exodus 20:5, ``... punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation ...'' as an example of God's injustice. The effects of sin and its retribution may extend several generations and thus the ``children'' share in the retribution for the ``father's'' sins. Does Mr. Silverman deny that children suffer for the mistakes of the parents? Do children suffer as a consequence of their parents having AIDS?
God also affirmed that each individual is responsible for his actions. Mr. Silverman should read Ezekiel 18:2-20, part of which is as follows, ``The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.'' Deuteronomy 24:16 states the same thing.
Mr. Silverman also stated, ``Unfortunately, there is no commandment about parents honoring their children or treating them humanely.'' Although not included in the Ten Commandments, there are many references throughout the Bible to the responsibility a parent has to the child:
``Fathers, do not embitter your children or they will become discouraged''` (Colossians 3:21). And also, ``Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord'' (Ephesians 6:4).
Perhaps Mr. Silverman should take more time in the study of the book he so loves to ridicule!
CHARLES M. ROBINSON

The last line is the kicker, since many atheists know the Bible better than most Xians do!

Aha! Here is Mr. Silverman's letter which promted the above:

Quote:

Ten Commandments
In his April 9 article, Armstrong Williams states and interprets the Ten Commandments, which he and most Americans believe to be a code for living a virtuous life. Permit me the opportunity to explain why I think a pluralistic, democratic and freedom-loving society can do better.
The First Commandment, ``Thou shalt have no other gods before me,'' conflicts with the First Amendment to our Constitution that guarantees freedom of religion - the right to worship one, several, or no gods.
The next three (no graven images, not taking God's name in vain, keeping the Sabbath day holy) refer to specific kinds of worship directed toward a jealous God, who punishes children even ``unto the third and fourth generation'' because their fathers could not believe.
The fifth, about honoring parents, should not be so unconditional as to condone child abuse. Unfortunately, there is no commandment about parents honoring their children or treating them humanely.
The next four (proscriptions against murder, adultery, stealing and lying) obviously have merit, and existed in cultures long before Moses. Yet even these are open to interpretation. Is abortion murder? What about euthanasia? War? Capital punishment? Reasonable people can disagree and respect other opinions, unless convinced they are acting as God's messenger.
The 10th Commandment, ``Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, wife, slaves, ox, donkey or any other property,'' condones slavery and treating women as property. Furthermore, the American system of merchandising is based on coveting our neighbor's possessions.
The Ten Commandments, meant to be the cornerstone of an ethical and moral life, are notable for what they omit. Instead of condemning covetousness and threatening to punish children if their parents do not worship in the correct way, why not condemn slavery, racism, sexual assault, child and spouse abuse and torture?
Armstrong Williams closes his article by saying that goodness comes ``from faith in, and reverence for, our creator.'' I believe goodness comes more from being honest, fair, kind and compassionate to our fellow humans than from worrying about one's relationship with an invisible deity.

See also: HERB SILVERMAN: Atheist committed to fight for rationalism and the responses!

theyeti · 03-31-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
Probably one of the big reasons Charleston is "quite liberal" by SC standards is the large numbers of non-native Charlestonians that settle there. I was brought to the Holy City care of Uncle Sam at CAFB. It was surprising how few of the people that I met who actually lived there were from even the state, nevermind the region. There are just as many Bible-thumpers in the Lowcountry as the rest of the state, but the concentration is a lot lower in Chas. due to large numbers of military retirees and Yankees seeking to avoid snow!

Without a doubt this is true. But aside from the military (not exactly a bastion of liberalism

), Charleston also has a tourism based economy, some unionized longshoremen, and lots of college students which tends to skew things liberal. And it's the only real urban area in the Lowcountry, and urban areas in general tend to be more liberal. I'm a non-native Charlestonian too, but I'm a native of SC. There're an awful lot of non-natives here though. Fine by me.

Quote:

There was an excellent piece about Silverman in the P&C (a Sunday profile ... the only one I've seen who wasn't some sort of theist) back in '98, which discussed his fight to become a notary public (there had been a requirement to profess some Faith, which he fought and won), his being an atheist and other things.

Ah, so that was Herb Silverman. I remember the case, but didn't remember the name. It was pretty slam-dunk in his favor.

There was also a case a few years back about the 10C being hung in the County Council chambers (or some such place). The ACLU jumped right on it, the County lost, and the tax payers got stuck with the bill. Except for whichever dumbass was in charge refused to pay the bill, the ACLU sued again, and we got stuck with an even bigger bill. This was shortly after SCOTUS ruled against the 10C, so it's not as if they didn't know any better.

Quote:

A week or two later, there was huge outpouring of letters to the editor ... most were upset that the paper had published this profile about someone who didn't believe in God. There was only one or two letters that were in any way positive towards him. It just showed you how ignorant and unaccepting people there still were. I'm sure if you check the P&C, you'll find some more of this soon (if it hasn't come up already).

I try not to read the P&C. It's editorial page sucks. Most of the letters they print are barely coherent and filled with unfocused rage. I've heard that a fair amount of intelligent letters sent to them never get printed, but I don't know that for sure. What do you expect from a editorial page that always prints Cal Thomas, Will Buckley, and George Will?

Anyway, thanks for the additional links!

theyeti

gsx1138 · 04-01-2003, 11:28 AM

Well I just sent them a letter so perhaps they'll post it. If not, oh well.

Javaman · 04-06-2003, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gsx1138
Well I just sent them a letter so perhaps they'll post it. If not, oh well.

Let us know if it gets printed, please.

Javaman · 04-06-2003, 06:51 AM

And BTW, there were some pretty good responses (for the most part) already printed HERE.

03-28-2003, 02:43 PM	#11
RawData Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Puget Sound, WA, US Posts: 1,022	The Charleston/Washington connection Ok, in the Washington State government, 2 people walked out on an Islamic invocation. Now I am curious how many would walk out on an Atheist. I think I shall be asking the local Atheist community to find a good speaker to try it... Just probing the depths of discrimination in my state (the one with the lowest percentage of church goers).:banghead: RD

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03-28-2003, 02:56 PM	#12
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	RawData, Now I know why I find Seattle such a fun city to visit!

03-29-2003, 05:26 AM	#14
KidFury Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 372	I am curious, What is an invocation? is it like being called on to say Grace at dinner? Because it seems to me the last thing I would want to do... I live in canada so maybe i am not familiar with the practice

03-29-2003, 07:14 AM	#15
Jewel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 1,112	Somehow I do not find this one bit surprising. The folks that walked out were acting childish and it speaks volumes about their character.:banghead: :banghead:

04-01-2003, 11:28 AM	#18
gsx1138 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bremerton, Washington Posts: 379	Well I just sent them a letter so perhaps they'll post it. If not, oh well.

04-06-2003, 06:51 AM	#20
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	And BTW, there were some pretty good responses (for the most part) already printed HERE.

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