Freethought & Rationalism Archive

happyboy · 03-23-2003, 02:40 PM

i rejected God as a child, because it all seemed so fooliss to me, akin to writing notesto santa at christmas time, or leaving money for the tooth fairy.

but then i turned to God as a way out of the misery i felt as a young adult, a way to ease the pain. i didn't want God exactly: i just wanted an end to the pain.

well, i had what can basically be called "a religious experience." one night, after reading the new testament, i felt this sense of peace fill me, and i felt like i was being protected. that convinced me there was a God, and that He loved me.

but i constantly struggled with my sexuality (i am a gay man), and could not reconcile the fact that A) i was gay, and could not change my orientation, no matter how hard i tried, and B) God burns fags in hell.

as i read, i came across atrocitity after atrocity, and my faith began to dwindle. then, i met my best friend, and she helped me understand the contradictions, illogical thoughts, and outright fallacies that are contained in religion. this wonderful woman opened my eyes. i am eternally grateful to her for deconverting me.

Mageth · 03-23-2003, 03:09 PM

This is specifically addressed to 235 (welcome, BTW), but applies to others who haven't already done so.

I would suggest that you post your excellent "testimony" in the Atheists' "testimony" thread in SL&S for posterity.

Justin70 · 03-23-2003, 04:35 PM

Hey Gregg! What an excellent question! I've truly enjoyed reading all of the other poster's experiences . . kinda puts everything in perspective for me. =)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gregg
So--I would like to hear from any former Christians out there who feel that they DID have a Christian experience like "Christian's."

In other words, when you accepted Jesus as your savior, did you "feel" a "presence" enter you?

Actually, at the VERY moment that I was declared a 'Christian', no. There was no DEFINING moment per say.

Did you experience a transformation in mind and heart?

Oh very much yes! My 'dirty mouth' was no longer 'dirty' and I truly felt 'God' and did everything I could to be a worthy servant of his.

Did the feeling of a "presence" in you stay with you for a long time?

Approximately 2 years. That's pretty long for me.

Bonus questions:

How "REAL" did this presence feel to you?

VERY real. Was a very automatic thing to think of 'God' and to follow him from day to day. I seemed a LOT more happy to at the time. And yes, I did feel him in my heart.

What specific things happened to convince you, at least at first, that you had Jesus Christ indwelling you?

The way I was thinking changed - My emotional state changed drastically. I'm not sure how else to describe it. Sometimes you just know on an emotional level . . that's how I felt.

How did your life change? How did you change?

Seemed to be a lot happier. I had a LOT more friends. A general peace was over me. I felt that 'God' was directing me to be a certain way. To walk a certain way in my life . . etc.

What caused you to eventually reject Christianity DESPITE this experience (which was presumably a positive one, at least at the beginning)?

I've ALWAYS been a very rational and logical thinker. I ask very straightforward questions and always like to be answered DIRECTLY. For about 2 years, all my questions were 'skirted' and never answered. For some reason, during the time I was a 'Christian' I never really cared that they weren't answered. Then, after 2 or so years, I started to really WANT answers. I wasn't satisfied with what the church was telling me because they weren't answering anything. The posts by Christians here on this board remind me a LOT of the answers that I got from my church. It was always the same runaround. I got very tired of it.

Did the feeling of a "presence" leave suddenly, or was it a gradual process?

I was so focused on my research to PROVE Christianity right that I didn't really do or feel much else. I was determined to validate my belief through empiracal evidence and it failed, miserably.

Thanks for any replies!

You're welcome. =) Great questions

Gregg

Carrie · 03-23-2003, 05:05 PM

This is what I specifically wrote to Christian, in another thread, concerning whether I knew Jesus or not:

Hi Christian,

You will have to reconsider, because according to your qualification for being a Christian, I was one, and I knew Jesus and had a relationship with God.

At least at first and for a while. Like I said, of the 6 years, my last 3 years were bad, but the first 3 were not so bad. Like I said, at first, I was glad to be "saved" and I liked the new morality "God" gave me. And I loved "God's people." Did I love God and Jesus?
Yes, at first, though maybe not as much as others, and that's simply because I had a hard time understanding it all. I told myself to not worry about understanding, and just love Jesus. I remember picturing Jesus riding in my car with me, as my friend, and I'd talk to him. I'd also pray to God and thank God for all good things, and for who he was, but that was before I knew much about who he was, from the Bible. I hadn't yet read about the "marry your rapist" and "prove your virginity" and "own slaves" stuff. I did know about hell, and I didn't like that plan, but I loved God anyway, though I made myself love him.
I told myself over and over that "God is good, so love him." It wasn't easy to love him naturally. Maybe that has to do with my relationship I had with my own dad. He wasn't around much when I was a kid, and when he was, he was mad. So God also seemed mad and distant to me. It was hard to know a FATHER I couldn't see. Or you could say that I loved God because I obeyed his commands. The Bible says, "love for God is to obey his
commands."

But your exact qualification was: Did I see God working in my life and in my heart?

The answer is YES.

Today, would I say that it was God? No. But back then, I would have said it was God working in my life.

For example: I gave thanks to God for my new morality. I said it was God who got me to quit smoking pot, quit stealing, quit sleeping around, etc. I saw "God" working in my life. And in my heart. I felt different. I felt compassionate, more secure, more confident, more humble. I remember telling myself not to think bad thoughts about people, because I knew God could see my thoughts, and I wanted to honor God in my thoughts and be
pure, and not think evil things anymore. I also thought I saw God answering my prayers. For example, I got a boyfriend, I got married, we got a house, I didn't die in a car crash that could have killed me, etc.

So back then, according to your criteria, I "knew God and Jesus."

However, today, I do not attribute all that stuff to God. I think all these things could have happened without prayer. Lots of people have good things happen to them without prayer. And the changes in my life were due to a fear of Hell, even though I felt I loved God at the time. I loved God before I was a Fundie Christian though. I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that God loves us, but I just believed that everyone was saved automatically, so of course I loved God.

I am still grateful for the changes that I had while I was a Christian. I'm glad to have morality now. It's just that I think I could have gotten the way I am today by some other means as well. I don't think that only Christianity could have brought about the changes in my life and heart. I could have been a Muslim and had the same changes, or a Mormon, etc. Or I could have been raised more morally, or learned to be this way through life lessons, or just decided to be this way. By THIS WAY I mean that I no longer want to steal, I no longer sleep around (I am faithful to my husband, whereas before I used to cheat on every boyfriend I ever had, because I had an unfaithful personality), I no longer feel like cussing as much, I am much nicer to my family and others, I don't want to get wasted, I do want to be forgiving, serving, giving, and loving, etc. I still want to be this way, even though I'm not a Christian.

Did Christianity make me this way? Yes, and that's what is good about Christianity. Could I have gotten this way through other religions? Yes, and that's what's good about those religions as well.

So saying, "I saw God working in my life and heart," doesn't mean much. I could just as easily say, "I saw Allah working in my life and heart," or "I saw the teachings of Buddha working in my life and in my heart," or "my counselor helped change my life and my heart."

So what have you to say about this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To add to this, I will say that my experience of the Holy Spirit, the presence, within me, was quite real. The morning after I was baptized, I woke up and felt very light, like all my sins were gone, and I was very happy, and I felt saved. I felt like something was in me and around me, protecting me and guiding me.

When I got the urge to do something good, I attributed that feeling the Holy Spirit speaking to me inside my heart. Also, AT FIRST, when I was in church especially, I would get an overwhelming feeling of joy and peace, and gratitude, and I would cry tears of happiness.

All these feelings and faded away gradually. They didn't go away all at once, just as my belief didn't fade all at once.

When you believe something strongly (no matter what it is) feelings and action comes along with it. Charismatic Christians believe that they can speak in tongues, prophecy, and heal. They believe it so strongly, and swear to what they have seen and heard and felt. Buddhists believe that through meditation they can reach a divine state of bliss. They "feel" nirvana, and their experience and belief brings about changes in their lives. But do their feelings mean that their way is the best way? It wouldn't be the best or right way, according to Christians. However, I'll bet that the experience of a person in a state of meditation induced nirvana / or the experience of a life of devout Buddhism is at least as good or better than any experience by a Christian.

Calzaer · 03-23-2003, 05:45 PM

You realize you can never win this discussion, right?

Fiach · 03-23-2003, 07:29 PM

First I want to dismiss the arrogant fundamentalist argument that they are the only Christians. They are just the most accomplished haters within the field of Christianity, and the most ignorant in my humble opinion.

I would like to adress all Atheist here. Whom of you began life as a Chistian? I don't care if it is a Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Protestant, Fundamentalist, or Pentacostal Holy Roller. I accept them all as being Christians if they follow Jesus Christ. I don't split hairs over the born again bullshit.

My hypothesis is that the majority of Atheists are Christians with a number of Jews, very few Muslims. Even if one's father, like mine was an Atheist, but one is raised and indoctrinated into Christian mythololgy, like I was, that counts as Christian.

I don't know how to set up a forum poll or I would do so.

Fiach

Carrie · 03-23-2003, 07:46 PM

I began life as a Catholic. Then went Fundy Christian. But now I am NOT an Atheist really. I just use that term to simplify things, to say that I'm not a Christian. Like I'll say, "we atheists," meaning we non-believers on the Secular Web. Actually I am a Deist / Agnostic.

spurly · 03-23-2003, 07:52 PM

As a Christian, IMHO the NT does say that Christians can fall away from grace and leave the fold. I've seen it happen before. I have no doubt that some people on this board who are atheists now were at one time dedicated followers of Christ. And who knows, maybe they will be again some day.

Kevin

edited to add: I am coming more and more to the conclusion that the secular web is not a good forum for Christians to talk about theological differences of opinion. The Christians who are here should unite behind the simple truths that bind all of us together and not argue over the peripheral points.

ajm51987 · 03-23-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gregg
....when you accepted Jesus as your savior, did you "feel" a "presence" enter you?

Abosultly. It was the most wonderful feeling in the world

Did you experience a transformation in mind and heart?

Yes. I stoped swearing, stopped looking at porno and all that other "bad" stuff

Did the feeling of a "presence" in you stay with you for a long time?

Yes, there was never a lull in the "presense"

How "REAL" did this presence feel to you?

As real as anything I can see or hear

What specific things happened to convince you, at least at first, that you had Jesus Christ indwelling you? How did your life change? How did you change?

yes, See above

What caused you to eventually reject Christianity DESPITE this experience (which was presumably a positive one, at least at the beginning)?

I realized that my fundyness was distancing me from eveyone, even my closest christian friends. I started to also realize that if god was real, he wasent a very nice guy.

Did the feeling of a "presence" leave suddenly, or was it a gradual process?

It was gradual, denying god and the divinity of jebus was one of the hardest things I have ever done

Fiach · 03-23-2003, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ajm51987

For me, it was my concern about finding Christian theology so nonsensical that I couldn't accept it. Yet the fact that my mates blindly accepted it without really knowing what it was about still bothered me. That is why I tried so hard to believe. I read the Bible extensively but that only highlighted the irrationality of the Christian myth in my mind. One Christian myth after another was rejected by my brain's rational analysis.

But it bothered me even though there was little to know animosity where I grew up. I though I was missing something that they all saw. But when we talked about it, I realised that I was the only one who actually thought about it. The believers were nominal. They really didn't give it much serious thought.

I felt very good when I said, "enough, this Christianity is a pile of bollocks. There is no space monster who made me out of mud to send me to hell."

Fiach

03-23-2003, 07:29 PM	#16
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	How many Atheists are ex-christians? First I want to dismiss the arrogant fundamentalist argument that they are the only Christians. They are just the most accomplished haters within the field of Christianity, and the most ignorant in my humble opinion. I would like to adress all Atheist here. Whom of you began life as a Chistian? I don't care if it is a Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Protestant, Fundamentalist, or Pentacostal Holy Roller. I accept them all as being Christians if they follow Jesus Christ. I don't split hairs over the born again bullshit. My hypothesis is that the majority of Atheists are Christians with a number of Jews, very few Muslims. Even if one's father, like mine was an Atheist, but one is raised and indoctrinated into Christian mythololgy, like I was, that counts as Christian. I don't know how to set up a forum poll or I would do so. Fiach

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-23-2003, 02:40 PM	#11
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	i rejected God as a child, because it all seemed so fooliss to me, akin to writing notesto santa at christmas time, or leaving money for the tooth fairy. but then i turned to God as a way out of the misery i felt as a young adult, a way to ease the pain. i didn't want God exactly: i just wanted an end to the pain. well, i had what can basically be called "a religious experience." one night, after reading the new testament, i felt this sense of peace fill me, and i felt like i was being protected. that convinced me there was a God, and that He loved me. but i constantly struggled with my sexuality (i am a gay man), and could not reconcile the fact that A) i was gay, and could not change my orientation, no matter how hard i tried, and B) God burns fags in hell. as i read, i came across atrocitity after atrocity, and my faith began to dwindle. then, i met my best friend, and she helped me understand the contradictions, illogical thoughts, and outright fallacies that are contained in religion. this wonderful woman opened my eyes. i am eternally grateful to her for deconverting me.

03-23-2003, 03:09 PM	#12
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	This is specifically addressed to 235 (welcome, BTW), but applies to others who haven't already done so. I would suggest that you post your excellent "testimony" in the Atheists' "testimony" thread in SL&S for posterity.

03-23-2003, 05:05 PM	#14
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	This is what I specifically wrote to Christian, in another thread, concerning whether I knew Jesus or not: Hi Christian, You will have to reconsider, because according to your qualification for being a Christian, I was one, and I knew Jesus and had a relationship with God. At least at first and for a while. Like I said, of the 6 years, my last 3 years were bad, but the first 3 were not so bad. Like I said, at first, I was glad to be "saved" and I liked the new morality "God" gave me. And I loved "God's people." Did I love God and Jesus? Yes, at first, though maybe not as much as others, and that's simply because I had a hard time understanding it all. I told myself to not worry about understanding, and just love Jesus. I remember picturing Jesus riding in my car with me, as my friend, and I'd talk to him. I'd also pray to God and thank God for all good things, and for who he was, but that was before I knew much about who he was, from the Bible. I hadn't yet read about the "marry your rapist" and "prove your virginity" and "own slaves" stuff. I did know about hell, and I didn't like that plan, but I loved God anyway, though I made myself love him. I told myself over and over that "God is good, so love him." It wasn't easy to love him naturally. Maybe that has to do with my relationship I had with my own dad. He wasn't around much when I was a kid, and when he was, he was mad. So God also seemed mad and distant to me. It was hard to know a FATHER I couldn't see. Or you could say that I loved God because I obeyed his commands. The Bible says, "love for God is to obey his commands." But your exact qualification was: Did I see God working in my life and in my heart? The answer is YES. Today, would I say that it was God? No. But back then, I would have said it was God working in my life. For example: I gave thanks to God for my new morality. I said it was God who got me to quit smoking pot, quit stealing, quit sleeping around, etc. I saw "God" working in my life. And in my heart. I felt different. I felt compassionate, more secure, more confident, more humble. I remember telling myself not to think bad thoughts about people, because I knew God could see my thoughts, and I wanted to honor God in my thoughts and be pure, and not think evil things anymore. I also thought I saw God answering my prayers. For example, I got a boyfriend, I got married, we got a house, I didn't die in a car crash that could have killed me, etc. So back then, according to your criteria, I "knew God and Jesus." However, today, I do not attribute all that stuff to God. I think all these things could have happened without prayer. Lots of people have good things happen to them without prayer. And the changes in my life were due to a fear of Hell, even though I felt I loved God at the time. I loved God before I was a Fundie Christian though. I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that God loves us, but I just believed that everyone was saved automatically, so of course I loved God. I am still grateful for the changes that I had while I was a Christian. I'm glad to have morality now. It's just that I think I could have gotten the way I am today by some other means as well. I don't think that only Christianity could have brought about the changes in my life and heart. I could have been a Muslim and had the same changes, or a Mormon, etc. Or I could have been raised more morally, or learned to be this way through life lessons, or just decided to be this way. By THIS WAY I mean that I no longer want to steal, I no longer sleep around (I am faithful to my husband, whereas before I used to cheat on every boyfriend I ever had, because I had an unfaithful personality), I no longer feel like cussing as much, I am much nicer to my family and others, I don't want to get wasted, I do want to be forgiving, serving, giving, and loving, etc. I still want to be this way, even though I'm not a Christian. Did Christianity make me this way? Yes, and that's what is good about Christianity. Could I have gotten this way through other religions? Yes, and that's what's good about those religions as well. So saying, "I saw God working in my life and heart," doesn't mean much. I could just as easily say, "I saw Allah working in my life and heart," or "I saw the teachings of Buddha working in my life and in my heart," or "my counselor helped change my life and my heart." So what have you to say about this? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To add to this, I will say that my experience of the Holy Spirit, the presence, within me, was quite real. The morning after I was baptized, I woke up and felt very light, like all my sins were gone, and I was very happy, and I felt saved. I felt like something was in me and around me, protecting me and guiding me. When I got the urge to do something good, I attributed that feeling the Holy Spirit speaking to me inside my heart. Also, AT FIRST, when I was in church especially, I would get an overwhelming feeling of joy and peace, and gratitude, and I would cry tears of happiness. All these feelings and faded away gradually. They didn't go away all at once, just as my belief didn't fade all at once. When you believe something strongly (no matter what it is) feelings and action comes along with it. Charismatic Christians believe that they can speak in tongues, prophecy, and heal. They believe it so strongly, and swear to what they have seen and heard and felt. Buddhists believe that through meditation they can reach a divine state of bliss. They "feel" nirvana, and their experience and belief brings about changes in their lives. But do their feelings mean that their way is the best way? It wouldn't be the best or right way, according to Christians. However, I'll bet that the experience of a person in a state of meditation induced nirvana / or the experience of a life of devout Buddhism is at least as good or better than any experience by a Christian.

03-23-2003, 05:45 PM	#15
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	You realize you can never win this discussion, right?

03-23-2003, 07:46 PM	#17
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	I began life as a Catholic. Then went Fundy Christian. But now I am NOT an Atheist really. I just use that term to simplify things, to say that I'm not a Christian. Like I'll say, "we atheists," meaning we non-believers on the Secular Web. Actually I am a Deist / Agnostic.

03-23-2003, 07:52 PM	#18
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	As a Christian, IMHO the NT does say that Christians can fall away from grace and leave the fold. I've seen it happen before. I have no doubt that some people on this board who are atheists now were at one time dedicated followers of Christ. And who knows, maybe they will be again some day. Kevin edited to add: I am coming more and more to the conclusion that the secular web is not a good forum for Christians to talk about theological differences of opinion. The Christians who are here should unite behind the simple truths that bind all of us together and not argue over the peripheral points.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.