Dr Rick

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

John Adams:

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'"

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"


Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."
"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Benjamin Franklin:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity."

Ethan Allen:

"That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words."

[I am] "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."

Fianally, The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty.

Rick

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Dr Rick ]</p>

mfaber

In a word, YES!!! You have summed Radorth's position concisely, wish I had thought of it....

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

lpetrich

Except that there are too many differences in detail. A more plausible source for many the details of the US Constitution may be the colonial New York State one.

The Roman Senate was essentially a council of aristocrats -- and it chose the Republic's leaders, the two consuls, for one-year terms.

Daggah

Sigh...

Fact #1:

There is no reference to Christianity in the Constitution, the legal founding document of America.

Fact #2:

Many of the individuals who had the largest philosophical and theoretical impact on the American Revolution and the formation of the American government were deists (Locke, Paine, others.)

Fact #3:

We have a treaty, unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1797, stating in no uncertain terms that America is NOT a Christian nation. While it is true that no one can say with any certainty how Article XI found its way into the treaty, it WAS there when the Senate ratified it, making it clear that they approved of the statements within the treaty.

Fact #4:

The founding fathers made it clear that religion and religious belief would NOT be a requirement for being allowed in office.

Fact #5:

The founding fathers also made it clear that the American government could not be anything BUT a secular nation. The First Amendment is very clear.

Grumpy

Well, at least I thought it was kickass.

Buffman

(General comments)

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that Radorth needed me more than I needed him. However, I do appreciate his acknowledgement, belated as it may be, that my concern has been with accuracy rather than interpretive dogma. If anyone cares, the accurate information regarding my personal efforts with Radorth can be found <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000739&p=8" target="_blank">here</a> ...and throughout the entire string.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;

mfaber

Christian Bible Foundations of the U.S.A

Outstanding!

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;

Radcliffe Emerson

George Washington was an atheist.

Please read these carefully before you make that claim again.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html#1" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html#1</a>

<a href="http://exchristian.net/xtains/washington.html" target="_blank">http://exchristian.net/xtains/washington.html</a>

In all his letters, there is not ONE mention of Jesus anywhere, not ONE.

SPEECH TO THE DELAWARE CHIEFS

(Extracts)
Brothers: I am glad you have brought three of the Children of your principal Chiefs to be educated with us. I am sure Congress will open the Arms of love to them, and will look upon them as their own Children, and will have them educated accordingly. This is a great mark of your confidence and of your desire to preserve the friendship between the Two Nations to the end of time, and to become One people with your Brethen of the United States. My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast.

(Note)

In the writing of Robert Hanson Harrison. The document is signed by Washington, who added, beneath his signature, "Commander in chief of all the Armies in the United States of America." The above text is from the signed document (which is mutilated) in the possession of Dr. A. S. W. Rosenbach, of New York City and Philadelphia. The portion in brackets was supplied from the copy by Caleb Gibbs, inclosed in Washington's letter to the President of Congress, May 14, I779, q. v.
(End extracts)

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Buffman

Daggah

Fact #4:

The founding fathers made it clear that religion and religious belief would NOT be a requirement for being allowed in office.

You might elect to tread lightly here. Though ART. VI, Sect 3 of the Constitution does include the "no religious test" phrase, it applied only to offices of the federal government. State elective offices still contained many restrictions on non-Christians. It took the 14th Amendment, not ratified until July 28, 1868, before your statement was applicable to all elective offices.

Daggah

Buffman: that's what I meant. Alas, I was not clear. It is sad that many states STILL have laws in the books forbidding atheists from holding office.

Buffman

Yup! (I was just attempting to protect your flank.)

Radorth

You don't get out much do you?

Jefferson also exalted Jesus' own teachings, as did all the framers except 3 that I know of. So he either contradicted himself, or he simply made distinctions which real free-thinkers have no trouble making. Even Paine did not speak of Jesus himself as you have done.

It is as logically ridiculous to blame Jesus or his teachings for abuses by dumb Christians as it is to blame Marx and atheists for Communist abuses.

I said the teachings of Christ, not Christianity. You will doubtless refuse to stop blurring the distinction, because you would have no argument of course.

I also said "God" and we note that nobody is talking about the Declaration of Independence anymore, for obvious reasons.

Rad