Not Prince Hamlet

And I just love how every so often, someone will post a message like, "My wife and I tried for years to conceive, but then we tried praying to God and suddenly she's pregnant. Our prayers made her pregnant."

(My thinking? "That and the mailman.")

Seriously, there's something obscene about the idea of a God who will let people suffer until they flatter and beg Him enough to change his mind and help them.

He'll let poor little Cindy die because nobody prayed for her, yet He'll help that couple conceive?

Let's face it, "God works in mysterious ways" isn't enough. If this is how He's working, He's not only mysterious, He's downright batty.

Jeff

bonduca

God is my Aunt Selma?

Not Prince Hamlet

Your mom and I have been meaning to tell you for a while now, honey. I'm sorry you had to hear it this way.

beekay

I think what is being overlooked here is the "basic" essence of prayer. The question asked here makes it sound like the only purpose of prayer is to ask for things, and I believe that is a mistaken view of how it is supposed to work. If a theist would please give us a little "prayer 101" I think that might help the conversation here a little bit.

Does god actually pick one sports team over another if both pray for victory? Does god help someone pass a test at school if the student prays real hard about it?

I know some folks claim to communicate with god on a personal level. They feel god directs them in their daily life ... and prayer is somehow the communication connection.

Excuse my rambling ... it's late and I need some sleep ...

bonduca

One church I went to briefly used to tell us that it was ok to pray for money, or a new car, since "God wants his people to be properous."

So what did I do? I became an atheist and drive a beat-up Toyota.

Not Prince Hamlet

Well, it's not so much an overlooking.

Either prayer can be used to change God's mind or it can't be. The choices are boolean: no maybes, sometimes, or it depends allowed.

If it can be, then we've demonstrated that God is not benevolent. If it can't be, we've demonstrated that people who claim that praying made them pregnant (or taught them Russian) are talking hooey.

I think the contradiction comes from the theft of pagan customs by Christianity. In many pagan religions, they make it quite clear: the gods are not your friends, but if you appease them, they will help you. There is no paradox in praying to one of these gods, because they are quite clear: if you do not make the gods happy, they will not help you.

But Christianity created a paradox by stealing the pagan rites and gods and claiming them as its own. You can not have a benevolent God whose mind is changed by beseeching.

Jeff

Not Prince Hamlet

With a Darwin "fish" on it, no less!

Jeff

lpetrich

Because that would indicate how desired someone's healing would be.

However, that would only be a problem for a non-omnipotent being, where healing has some nonzero resource cost (time, attention, whatever). But for an omnipotent being, that resource cost is zero.

That's extremely stupid, because an omnipotent being is responsible for everything that happens by omission as well as by commission; if there is no such thing as a crime of omission, try getting away with one some time, and see if you can convince the jury that there is no such thing as a crime of omission.

A completely benevolent being would not allow injuries and sickness to happen in the first place. Period. Consider what Heaven is supposed to be like, and you'll get the picture. So all those supposedly-important factors are just plain irrelevant.

As to character-building, there are more efficient ways for an omnipotent being to build a suitable character, such as imprinting it, otherwise that being would not be omnipotent.

And I'm a computer programmer -- a creator of sorts, even if one who is far from omnipotent or omniscient. And I won't claim that I'm completely benevolent.

Being completely benevolent can be interpreted as being like a machine that follows an endless loop with a similar sort of instruction.

Vorkosigan

Why would it do that, when simply getting Hitler to change his mind would be enough?

Gregorius

You forget that the good lord hardened the pharao's heart in order not let the jews leave Egypt, according to the Bible. Maybe he did it again...

/G