Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Anunnaki · 06-26-2002, 10:46 AM

FOX news is in a tizzy and said they are trying to track down the Athiest dad who`s responsible for getting the ball rolling on this.

And here is Jerry Falwell on the phone to FOX saying that the judge who ruled this has ZERO knowledge on the history of America and that tthis IS a Christian country.

This is gonna be good watching!

Lone Wolf · 06-26-2002, 10:47 AM

As the analysts were just saying, the interpretation looks as if the entire pledge is unconstitunional as it is, and thus can't be recited at all (not just 'optional' )

But, I'll bet this gets shot down by the time it gets to the Supreme Court.

ashibaka · 06-26-2002, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sephiroth:
I'm totally shocked, the fundies are gonna rave like hell.

Yes, one can imagine...

"[glub glub]... This is a [sob] Christian country... our founding fathers were Christian [sob sob]... The Pledge has stayed the same for over 200 years [sob sob]... it's our [glub] nation's history..."

[edit] Looks like Falwell just said those exact words.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: ashibaka ]

UnaffiliatedOld · 06-26-2002, 10:51 AM

The story is up on Fox and CNN now.

I can't wait to listen to my local reactionary talk radio station on the way home.

Toto · 06-26-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

We first consider whether the 1954 Act and the EGUSD�s policy of teacher-led Pledge recitation survive the endorsement test. The magistrate judge found that �the ceremonial reference to God in the pledge does not convey endorsement of particular religious beliefs.� Supreme Court precedent does not support that conclusion.

[4] In the context of the Pledge, the statement that the United States is a nation �under God� is an endorsement of religion. It is a profession of a religious belief, namely, a belief in monotheism. The recitation that ours is a nation �under God� is not a mere acknowledgment that many Americans believe in a deity. Nor is it merely descriptive of the undeniable historical significance of religion in the founding of the Republic. Rather, the phrase �one nation under God� in the context of the Pledge is normative. To recite the Pledge is not to describe the United States; instead, it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice, and � since 1954 � monotheism. The text of the official Pledge, codified in federal law, impermissibly takes a position with respect to the purely religious question of the existence and identity of God. A profession that we are a nation �under God� is identical, for Establishment Clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation �under Jesus,� a nation �under Vishnu,� a nation �under Zeus,� or a nation �under no god,� because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion. �[T]he government must pursue a course of complete neutrality toward religion.� Wallace, 472 U.S. at 60. Furthermore, the school district�s practice of teacher-led recitation of the Pledge aims to inculcate in students a respect for the ideals set forth in the Pledge, and thus amounts to state endorsement of these ideals. Although students cannot be forced to participate in recitation of the Pledge, the school district is nonetheless conveying a message of state endorsement of a religious belief when it requires public school teachers to recite, and lead the recitation of, the current form of the Pledge.
. . .

[5] The Pledge, as currently codified, is an impermissible government endorsement of religion because it sends a message to unbelievers �that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community.� Lynch, 465 U.S. at 688 (O�Connor, J., con-curring).

Justice Kennedy, in his dissent in Allegheny, agreed:

[B]y statute, the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag describes the United States as �one nation under God.� To be sure, no one is obligated to recite this phrase, . . . but it borders on sophistry to suggest that the reasonable atheist would not feel less than a full member of the political community every time his fellow Americans recited, as part of their expression of patriotism and love for country, a phrase he believed to be false.

Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 672 (Kennedy, J., dissenting) (citations and internal quotation marks omitted).

Consequently, the policy and the Act fail the endorsement test.

I am in shock. I don't know whether to celebrate or run and hide from the conservative reaction to come. The logic of the opinion cannot be avoided, and the only way to attack this opinion is on standing or some other way of avoiding the issue.

ashibaka · 06-26-2002, 11:04 AM

Here's a <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledgeofallegiance.ap/index.html" target="_blank">more lengthy article</a> on AOL-Time-Warner-CNN.

Ron Garrett · 06-26-2002, 11:05 AM

This is a glorious day! HUZZAH! HUZZAH! HUZZAH!

Bad Religion · 06-26-2002, 11:05 AM

I am really excited...I know some kooks are going to write to the newspapers. I can't wait to respond

.

This is going to be fun to watch. Mabye this will lead to getting god off of our money also. (This beats watching CSI!)

Anunnaki · 06-26-2002, 11:06 AM

WOW! Micheal Newdow (the athest who started this) has been on the phone with FOX for about 10 minutes explaining this.

He was asked if he`s scared for the safety of his family and he said he was since theres a lot of god loving Americans out there who think it`s fine to kill people who disagree with you.

He then made a joke by saying he was "praying" that his family would be safe.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]

Anunnaki · 06-26-2002, 11:08 AM

oops

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]

06-26-2002, 11:06 AM	#19
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	WOW! Micheal Newdow (the athest who started this) has been on the phone with FOX for about 10 minutes explaining this. He was asked if he`s scared for the safety of his family and he said he was since theres a lot of god loving Americans out there who think it`s fine to kill people who disagree with you. He then made a joke by saying he was "praying" that his family would be safe. [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

06-26-2002, 11:08 AM	#20
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	oops [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

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06-26-2002, 10:46 AM	#11
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	FOX news is in a tizzy and said they are trying to track down the Athiest dad who`s responsible for getting the ball rolling on this. And here is Jerry Falwell on the phone to FOX saying that the judge who ruled this has ZERO knowledge on the history of America and that tthis IS a Christian country. This is gonna be good watching!

06-26-2002, 10:47 AM	#12
Lone Wolf Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 383	As the analysts were just saying, the interpretation looks as if the entire pledge is unconstitunional as it is, and thus can't be recited at all (not just 'optional' ) But, I'll bet this gets shot down by the time it gets to the Supreme Court.

06-26-2002, 10:51 AM	#14
UnaffiliatedOld Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 105	The story is up on Fox and CNN now. I can't wait to listen to my local reactionary talk radio station on the way home.

06-26-2002, 11:04 AM	#16
ashibaka Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cloudy Water Posts: 443	Here's a <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledgeofallegiance.ap/index.html" target="_blank">more lengthy article</a> on AOL-Time-Warner-CNN.

06-26-2002, 11:05 AM	#17
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	This is a glorious day! HUZZAH! HUZZAH! HUZZAH!

06-26-2002, 11:05 AM	#18
Bad Religion Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: memphis, tn. usa Posts: 127	I am really excited...I know some kooks are going to write to the newspapers. I can't wait to respond . This is going to be fun to watch. Mabye this will lead to getting god off of our money also. (This beats watching CSI!)

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