mike_decock

Many Christians will reject a naturalistic explanation, no matter how obvious, well documented or repeatable.

Positing a supernatural solution to a naturally observable phenomenon isn't a solution, it's an admission of ignorance. Ignorance isn't proof of the supernatural.

-Mike...

BioBeing

And if people are bad and mean, then it stands to reason that God must have made them that way too. Or, maybe you'd say Satan, but since God made Satan...

If God wants us to think for ourselves, and use this wonderfull free will he gave us, then why did he send Jesus? Surely, if we are to truly believe based on faith ALONE, then he must give no evidence at all. Jesus was evidence. So where is the evidence today? Why do *I* have no evidence? Because he wants us to have faith... See how circular this gets, and is what I think what the OP was reffering to.

Who was it who wrote "God gave us intelligence as a test. By using it, we have failed."

Darth Dane

And if people are bad and mean, then it stands to reason that God must have made them that way too. Or, maybe you'd say Satan, but since God made Satan...

Yes God made satan, but satan wanted to go his own ways, he wanted to have freewill. It says in numerous texts that "not a hair would move without teh will of God"
This must mean that whatever we think say or do, is sanctioned by God, otherwise God would interfere(although we wouldn't see the interference, because whatever we choose is our choice, and that choice is sanctioned by God as described in teh bible)
Simply it means that satan could not have rebelled against God if God didn't allow it. If this is true, then we are meant to be here, in the state of world we are in.
Adam and eve could not have done what they did without the will of God.

If God wants us to think for ourselves, and use this wonderfull free will he gave us, then why did he send Jesus?

Maybe God didn't send Jesus. Maybe Jesus started to think for himself.

"The kingdom of heaven is spread upon earth but people do not see it."

If we saw the world as the garden of eden, would we act differently?

Surely, if we are to truly believe based on faith ALONE, then he must give no evidence at all. Jesus was evidence.

Who said that Jesus was teh evidence? It is the evidence ACCORDING to teh bible. I however haven't met Jesus, so for all I know he could just have been a very brave man.


So where is the evidence today? Why do *I* have no evidence? Because he wants us to have faith... See how circular this gets, and is what I think what the OP was reffering to.

If the world is the garden of eden, then earth is teh proof and evidence. But until we se as Jesus saw, namely that this IS the garden of eden, we will act as if it wasn't.
As humans were thrown out of eden(God), God was thrown out of humans.

Who was it who wrote "God gave us intelligence as a test. By using it, we have failed."

I disagree somewhat. We are using our intelligence, but perhaps not in the most practical way!
Polluting mother nature, killing and causing disharmony, is not the most practical way to do it, but it IS a solution to how we use our life and freewill.

I cannot say this is true, but perhaps it is!





DD - Love Spliff

mike_decock

You can't want free will unless you already have it.

-Mike...

Darth Dane

You can't want free will unless you already have it.

True, but what if you never used it?

Maybe satan was afraid of God, until he said: "come hell or highwater, I will do as I like"
If God will forgive everyone, then God will wait forever until Satan asks for forgiveness, God wants satan to choose freely to do as God asks. You don't have to, but it might be more pratical.

It was always there, we are now able to express it.




DD - Love Spliff

Philosoft

Hi Geo, good to see you around again.

Not necessarily. The only thing that seems inevitable is that an "obvious God" would change our motivation for believing in him. The decision to serve him, while possibly related, is ultimately independent.

Actually, supernatural epistemology (if there is such a thing) suggests that no supernatural explanation is more likely than another.

I like that. May I steal, uh, borrow it?
At least around these parts.

BioBeing

Darth,

Your idea of "Earth as Eden" has, I think, been played out in the Maia Hypothesis. Earth as a self-correcting organism and all that. While I agree with that kind of stuff to some extent (i.e. lets not shit in our own bed), to grant a planet conciousness to know what is good and bad is pure BS. Neither is a a god-layer required on top. I see nature as evidence of nature. Nothing more. If you are seeing a god in that, then what you are really saying is that there is no evidence. You are believing out of faith, and that god does not want us to find him (or maybe just doesn’t care). If we can both look at the same "evidence" and come to such widely different conclusions means that the evidence, at best, is dubious. Evidence to me would mean something incontrovertible, that both of us would see and say "Oh yes" and reach the same conclusion. [There have been many threads here on just what that evidence would be... I still think that lighting a grill would be a good one].

Exactly, the Bible says that he is the evidence. The majority of Xians (I think) accept Jesus as the son of God. To believe that Jesus was not the Son of God makes one, in my opinion, not a Christian.

My point was that, if the bible is correct in that Jesus is the son of God, why was it OK for God to present the evidence to humans then, but it is not OK for him to do so now. Either God wants to be found, or he doesn’t. Why "reveal" himself to some people as "religous experiences" and not others? Why not a level playing field with a consistent set of rules?

BioBeing

Choosing to not use free will is an act of free will, isn't it? And not using it because you don't know its there - how is that free will?

And what exactly would be the result of NOT using free will? Someone would have to make our decisions for us. Tell us when to get up. What to wear. What to eat. What to say. What to think. So when would we chose to use free will, if we had it but never used it. Somebody would have to chose for us... maybe they just got bored of being a puppet master and so "turned on" our free will?

mike_decock

As Biobeing pointed out, it's the same thing as never having had it.

Why would Satan be afraid of God?

The only reasonable explanation for why Satan turned on God is because he was bored.

-Mike...

Eric H

If God exists then he must be greater than all the tens of thousands of separate religions that exist, whether they are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc.

Maybe many of the religions recognise some truth about God, but not the complete truth.

Maybe because we are all individual we find God in many different ways, so we need a choice of many different ways.

I know that there are always people in religion who abuse the power that religion gives for their own ends of power, money, and violence.

Maybe one of the great weaknesses of religion is that we seem to use it to compete against each other, to own a greater truth than other faiths.

But maybe God intended us to do more than believe in him?
Maybe belief is more about inspiring people to serve the community in some way.

Maybe God is more about building relationships.

Could the separate religions of the world be more acceptable to God if they were more open in working together for the greater good of humanity?

Would more people recognise God, if the religions of the world worked more visibly together despite their differences?

Peace

Eric.