Late_Cretaceous

Human activity influences the world's climate in other ways besides greenhouse gases. Arosols, agriculture even jet contrails (http://www.sciencenews.org/20020511/fob1.asp) affect climate. It is quite conceivable that if humans didn't exist, the current world's climate would be different. Some of you may recall that in the 1970's some scientists were warning that man made pollution was causing global cooling. It is all very complicated and I don't think we can allways trust the experts to be able to predict anything. Coupled with human influence, natural changes in climate can and do occur. Is FOr all we know the human component of global warming actually stave off an ice age?


Here is an example of a situation that makes me cringe. The instructor of an undergraduate course about global warming criticized a pair students for making their report "too scientific" and that she "doesn't know when the cretaceous period was" (in reference to a part of the report regarding past climates), and gives an example of an island that was supposedly evacuated due to global warming but can't provide a location or date for this alleged event.

LeftCoast

Nicely done Alonzo.

I agree with your analysis, most of the "opposition" appears to come from the Conservative/Libertarian ideologies and I think I know why.

To the Conservative/Libertarian mind-set, it is an article of faith that the "Free Market" can solve all problems regardless; however, the solutions to Global Climate Change is something that so obviously requires the active intervention of Government on a global scale that it presents a serious challenge to their dogma. As a result, you have the GCC equivalents of the Institute for Creation Research shilling half-baked challenges and many others who simply stuff their fingers in their ears and sing louder in order not to have to become aware of the emerging reality that we are affecting our climate and in all probability not for the better.

LeftCoast

However, when the vast majority of experts in a given field are all saying more or less the same thing, it requires far more to discount that than the simple "well you can't always trust the experts". As for cooling predictions, "some scientists" does not a consensus make. I recall hearing that speculation, but I don't recall that such a conclusion was ever widely accepted by climatologists even at that time.

Do you have a solid reference for this? I.e - name of school, exact name of course, name of instructor, name of students - otherwise, this is an anecdotal story and not worth much of anything.

Late_Cretaceous

The rest of my post above got cut off.

I think the most important thing is to keep a level head and remain skeptical regarding all claims regarding climate change measurements and predictions. I trust neither the scare mongers nor those who deny the existance of GW.

Here is yet another example of something that made me cringe: Last year the "weather channel" made the claim that Mt. kilimanjaro's ice cap was totally gone - melted because of global warming. I was supicious, however, especially since they also claimed the mountain was in Kenya. I found a picture of Mt. killimanjaro on the net taken less then 2 weeks prior to this report, with it's icey summit plainly visible.

Here is a picture of the icey summit taken last january;
<a href="http://www.summitpost.com/mountains/photo_link.pl/p/photo_id__7902__object_id__17__type__mountain__mou ntain_id__17__route_id____user_id____order_by____l imit__" target="_blank">This page.</a>

Another report (can't remember the date or source) claimed that the North Pole had open water for the first time in milions of years (they later retracted their estimate and revised to to "thousand of years"). However, pictures taken from US navy submarines dating back to the 50's show otherwise (see <a href="http://www.john-daly.com)" target="_blank">www.john-daly.com)</a>

(Edited by Coragyps to fix long url.)

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]</p>

Late_Cretaceous

Steve said "any human attempts to control the climate are misguided, unpredictable and probably innefective."

I disagree Steve. I think any attempts to control the climate would be the ultimate example of human arrogance and would likely produce disasterous and regrettable consequences.

We should do whatever it takes to live cleaner, and minimize our impact. However, outrageous claims and scare mongering regarding GW are self defeating and perhaps more damaging then those who like to deny deny deny. While there is convincing evidence that the climate has warmed recently, there is nothing that can be said for sure regarding the long term.

Leftcoast.
Here is the online outline for the course

I should clarify. THe course is specifially about "violent weather" as the name states, and there is heavy emphasis on the role of GW in generating violent weather. The instructor I refered to was a guest lecturer who was commenting on an oral report.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Late_Cretaceous ]

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Late_Cretaceous

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Late_Cretaceous ]</p>

Morat

Global cooling so talked about in the late 70s was based on two factors: older climatological models and particulate matter emissions.

Smog, you know. Since the 1980s, partly in response to such warnings, but mostly because it's hell to breathe, the industrialized nations have cut particulate matter emissions hugely. So what was once such a problem as to potentially drown out the increased thermal capacity of the atmosphere has now shifted the other way, where it is drowned out by excess heating.

Alonzo Fyfe

I am one of those "conservative/libertarian" types you talk about -- who holds that a free market solution will work best in solving the problem.

The thing is, there is no free market principle that says "if you are rich, you may damage the health and wellbeing of others with impunity."

Whenever an industry is granted an immunity to inflict harm at no cost, this is the same as a government subsidy, and is a violation of free market principles.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

The_Gorgonzola

<a href="http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm" target="_blank">The Petition Page </a> seems to be disagreeing with you on this.
You're saying this not true? Whats your source?

Late_Cretaceous

The debate over global warming seems to have gone beyond science and into politics. There is rhetoric being spouted from both extremes, and it seems that it has become a minefield just to aks a simple set of questions without arousing people's ire.