Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 10-08-2002, 02:37 PM

Mageth,

On the one hand I can appreciate your position. On the other hand, the faith that we find in the gospels is a reasonable faith: one that needs not be afraid of physical death. It is a faith that recognizes the words of Jesus when he tells it like it is.

Matthew 10:28 -- Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Remember, Mageth, these are not my words. May I encourage you to consider them carefully, in their context?

Vanderzyden

It would help if you would tell me what your intent in posting them was. I haven't a clue. To scare me? Not working. To make me realize my parents are my "enemies?" Bullshit. What for, then?

Mageth · 10-08-2002, 02:39 PM

I agree with Devilnaut and K. I will post no more replies on this particular diversion, and I would request that Vanderzyden not as well.

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Mageth · 10-08-2002, 02:48 PM

As an interesting note, from a scripture Van posted above:

Matthew 10:28 -- Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Does these words of Jesus imply that the ultimate fate of unbelievers is "destruction" (as in annihilation) in Hell at the hand of God rather than eternal suffering?

Mageth · 10-08-2002, 02:51 PM

Anyway, to get back to the real topic of this thread, it seemed to me that the free will defense took a huge shot when coupled with God's supposed knowledge of the future. Any comments?

For what it's worth, I agree. Free will and "omniscience" are mutually exclusive. If god knows what I will do tomorrow, next week, and a year from now, I cannot possibly do anything different. My future choices are constrained by god's alleged foreknowledge.

Xians: any apologetics to get around this?

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

hinduwoman · 10-08-2002, 04:31 PM

Even omniscience is not so much of a problem I think.
If god has given us free will then he means for us to examine the evidence and make a choice. So if after doing so many CHOOSE to become atheists why would he punish us? Does he or does he not value free will?
I think that was the original topic.

B. H. Manners · 10-08-2002, 04:49 PM

I concur that we are getting off topic here. For everyones convienience I am posting xeren's original post below to help us stay on track:

xeren:

Theists, an honest question:
How could god send me to hell for not believing that Jesus is my savior, simply because random events of my life have not led me to any evidence that i see as conclusive?

Why should someone who sees apologetics as convincing enough to believe in Christ go to heaven, while someone who's standard for beliving something is just a little more stringent, go to hell?

Thanks
-xeren

K · 10-08-2002, 05:02 PM

hinduwoman:

I never thought of it that way, but it does make a lot of sense. Free will is the greatest good. It is so good that it justifies the all the suffering we see on earth. It is so good that it prevents God Himself from easing any of that suffering. How could it possibly be evil to exercise that free will that God found to be so important?

RJS · 10-08-2002, 05:22 PM

Quote:

So if after doing so many CHOOSE to become atheists why would he punish us? Does he or does he not value free will?

This logic taken to the extreme would suggest that rapists and murderers should not be punished because God made them that way.

Daggah · 10-08-2002, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
If you (1) reject him on the basis of a quick survey of "religious sayings", or (2) flatly deny his existence despite overwhelming evidence, then of course there is no way you will find him wonderful.

"Overwhelming evidence?" What overwhelming evidence?

Quote:

If, on the other hand, you were to take a genuine interest in seeking the truth about the way the world IS--instead of how you prefer it to be--then perhaps you would discover something about the Creator and what he is like. Then you could make an informed decision.

Ad hominem.

Or, if you prefer, sarcasm can also be used to show the absurdity of this statement:

If, on the other hand, you were to take a genuine interest in seeking the truth about the way the world IS--instead of how you prefer it to be--then perhaps you could discover the inherent beauty of a natural world existing independently of any supernatural "god." Then you could make an informed decision.

The irony here is that the god-explanation is the (and has historically been) the ultimate in arguments from ignorance. God is the conclusion you come to when you don't know enough about the world to MAKE an informed decision.

Daggah · 10-08-2002, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Finally, Mageth, please do not rely upon me to "provide the evidence". The evidence is there. You, however, won't admit the possibility that you are dismissing or overlooking it. In fact, you insist that your search is complete.

Remembering your track record in the E/C forum, I'd say this is quite an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

If you're "still looking," why do you twist and turn like a snake in the face of evidence that contradicts your precious worldview?

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10-08-2002, 02:37 PM	#431
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Mageth, On the one hand I can appreciate your position. On the other hand, the faith that we find in the gospels is a reasonable faith: one that needs not be afraid of physical death. It is a faith that recognizes the words of Jesus when he tells it like it is. Matthew 10:28 -- Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' Remember, Mageth, these are not my words. May I encourage you to consider them carefully, in their context? Vanderzyden It would help if you would tell me what your intent in posting them was. I haven't a clue. To scare me? Not working. To make me realize my parents are my "enemies?" Bullshit. What for, then?

10-08-2002, 02:39 PM	#432
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I agree with Devilnaut and K. I will post no more replies on this particular diversion, and I would request that Vanderzyden not as well. [ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

10-08-2002, 02:48 PM	#433
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	As an interesting note, from a scripture Van posted above: Matthew 10:28 -- Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Does these words of Jesus imply that the ultimate fate of unbelievers is "destruction" (as in annihilation) in Hell at the hand of God rather than eternal suffering?

10-08-2002, 02:51 PM	#434
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Anyway, to get back to the real topic of this thread, it seemed to me that the free will defense took a huge shot when coupled with God's supposed knowledge of the future. Any comments? For what it's worth, I agree. Free will and "omniscience" are mutually exclusive. If god knows what I will do tomorrow, next week, and a year from now, I cannot possibly do anything different. My future choices are constrained by god's alleged foreknowledge. Xians: any apologetics to get around this? [ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

10-08-2002, 04:31 PM	#435
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Even omniscience is not so much of a problem I think. If god has given us free will then he means for us to examine the evidence and make a choice. So if after doing so many CHOOSE to become atheists why would he punish us? Does he or does he not value free will? I think that was the original topic.

10-08-2002, 04:49 PM	#436
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	I concur that we are getting off topic here. For everyones convienience I am posting xeren's original post below to help us stay on track: xeren: Theists, an honest question: How could god send me to hell for not believing that Jesus is my savior, simply because random events of my life have not led me to any evidence that i see as conclusive? Why should someone who sees apologetics as convincing enough to believe in Christ go to heaven, while someone who's standard for beliving something is just a little more stringent, go to hell? Thanks -xeren

10-08-2002, 05:02 PM	#437
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	hinduwoman: I never thought of it that way, but it does make a lot of sense. Free will is the greatest good. It is so good that it justifies the all the suffering we see on earth. It is so good that it prevents God Himself from easing any of that suffering. How could it possibly be evil to exercise that free will that God found to be so important?

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