Francois Tremblay

But since determinism is mostly true, there is no need to quabble. If materialism was not true, then there would be no point in discussing it.

Vorkosigan

No, because Bob2 cannot talk. He has no memories. He is a new being, created ex nihilo.

Now, if you had a copying process, and could duplicate everything from memories down to the exact positions of the quarks in Bob2's atoms, then maybe. But maybe not.

Michael

tronvillain

Well, my answer assumed a copying process - cloning would require require years to produce a Bob2, who would simply be a younger identical twin.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]</p>

crocodile deathroll

Materialism is important if you are a coin collector. After all you would not want forged copy even it it is perfect

Francois Tremblay

I'm not sure how it would be less valuable to have a perfect copy of a coin instead of the original. We don't collect them because of their identity, but rather because of their nature (perhaps collectors would disagree with me).

tronvillain

crocodile deathtroll:
If it was actually perfect, I don't see why.

Christopher Lord

Its the rare nature of a coin that makes it valuable.

This is basic supply-demand of the sort they teach in highschool.

If there where a lot of perfect copies, no matter how perfect, the value would go down.

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Christopher Lord ]</p>

Bill Snedden

They would (to a point)

What would it mean to have a "perfect copy"? A very important factor in the valuation of any collectible is its provenance. That is, its historical record. Many times on object is valued because it is the only such object, or because it has a unique provenance (like being owned by a famous person). I'm not sure that such things could be "perfectly copied".

So, sometimes objects are collected because of their particular identity, rather than their material composition.

Anyway, to keep this on topic, my own feeling on the OP is that the reactions of the two "bobs" to any external stimuli would most likely be identical only in the moments immediately following the "separation". The longer the temporal distance, the more opportunities for unique internal and external stimuli that would produce rapidly diverging results.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

JB01

Quick question for Jonny:

Would you say that the response the materialists are giving implies that one or both of the Bobs has no "free will"?

crocodile deathroll

If the mind is matter, which is strongly suspect is true, then the Bob2 copy with all its quarks arranged in the same configuration should be the same Bob with the same memories as Bob1. Bob1 will only have to be destroyed before Bob2 is awakened. But then Bob2 one will only become Bob1