soulofdarwin

Well, Hugo, maybe you like the consumer version better:

Our Fardel

To spend, or not to spend, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous prices,
Or to deny the urge for instant gratification,
And by denying, grow richer. To deny, to grow rich –
To grow rich and become a millionaire next door,
With inflation much more, and through denial to avoid
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
The sucker is heir to; 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To deny, to grow rich –
To grow rich, perchance to pay taxes – ay, there's the rub,
For in that wealth of denial what penalty may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause; there's the respect
That makes calamity of a long life:
For who would bear the loss of the knicks and knacks,
The designers' labels, the automakers' SUVs,
The trips to Florence, the things that play DVDs,
The cellular phones, and the toys that mark our status,
When he himself might lose half his estate
To the IRS' bodkin; who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
For no more than a bank account of many figures?
The department store from whose bourn
Many trinkets emerge, engages our fantasies,
Helps us rather bear those ills we have,
And keeps us up with Joneses we know not of.
Thus, conscience doth make shoppers of us all!

Pyrrho

Whenever people ask whether life is worth living or not, I always think of Seneca's letters 70 and 77. And of David Hume's essay "Of Suicide".

In the end, I basically agree with soulofdarwin:

The point of departure, if you'll pardon the expression, is that when the "slings and arrows" outweigh the pleasures, then it is time for one to take one's exit. Of course, it may be difficult to determine future pleasures and pains, and this may mean that one will make a mistake regarding whether to continue living or not. But, really, it is not as if we were speaking of something really important, and in the end, as you say, you'll end up dead no matter what you do. It is not as if you could change the ultimate outcome.

thomaq

it seems like the conclusion being reached is that pessimistic people should "off" themselves and optimistic people should keep on keepin on. i'm not so sure i'm comfortable with this.

Pyrrho

Who should decide whether you live or die? You, or someone else?

thomaq

the answer depends on which world-view one holds to. my main point was not that certain people do or dont have a right to commit suicide. i was just expressing what seems to be the cumulative point of the thread thus far, which seems to establish the criteria that pessimists should kill themselves, optimists should not.

i get the impression that you think it is objectively right, that an individual should decide for him/herself whether or not to live or die. i am not convinced either way but i am interested in hearing your justification for this.

paul30

I have always believed we are animals, and our lives have exactly the same worth or lack or worth as that of any other animal.

I do not know, but I think, that the other animals do not agonize over whether life is worth living.

And I don't think people do, either, unless they are physically, psychologically, or environmentally ill. That is, unless they are suffering so badly they would rather die.

The other animals are the same. Sometimes they are so ill, or their circumstances are so noxious or hopeless that they give up and die.

I believe our sense of life's worth is entirely instinctual, and comes from physical, social, and environmental health.

Pyrrho

I agree with David Hume's reasoning on this matter:

http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBoo...20OF%20SUICIDE

You'll want to click on the "footnote" links as you read the text. Some are explanatory materials added by an editor, and others are Hume's remarks.

thomaq

i dont have time to read that at this point, maybe you could summarize it and personalize it and we can discuss it like that, if you are interested.

Secular Elation

i get the impression that you think it is objectively right, that an individual should decide for him/herself whether or not to live or die. i am not convinced either way but i am interested in hearing your justification for this.

For my personal justification...each person is in control of their own life. What they want to do with it, is their choice. They can do anything they want with their life, so long as they do not infringe on other beings. No human being asked to be alive; their parents made that decision for them. No consent from the person could have been given. Ultimately, a person should be in total control of their own life--including whether they want to live it or not.