Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Psycho Economist · 03-08-2003, 01:07 PM

I can't resist being a cynical ex-Christian for a moment, and letting my inner fundy answer this one...

See, God is like a fabulously wealthy man who in his wealth can buy anything except the true love of another. If he made things that loved him without choice, he would know in his heart that it was sychophancy, and the love would not be pleasing to Him.

But he can create beings with the independent capacity for freely-given love. Now, he could have made us all and put us in heaven, but that would be silly. Everyone would be so amazed by his awesome grace that people who wouldn't pick Him to love would have nothing else to devote themselves to, and people whose love was fair-weathered would not ever have their love tested. And God would be left with the sychophancy problem all over again.

So God made the Earth, and he made us, and he filled Earth with all sorts of distractions... things we could love more than Him, like the world itself, or other people, or money, or demons sent to promlugate false religions, or even

hot, throbbing man-cock.

Now, when God made the world, he didn't think that guys would try to "do" other guys. He knew that by creating brotherly love, some men would tend to be confused and would be attracted to other men... but it never occured to him that they might fornicate! And when it did happen, it grossed God out, and he told the people not to do it.

Our job as God's children is to resist all the temptations God put in the universe, and well, non-reproductive sex is one of them. Now gay people don't have to pretend to be straight, they just can't fornicate: the same rule applies to us normal people. If God means for a gay to have sex, he will make a woman who will love him as he is and want to bear his children, and the gay will know it's his duty to impregnate her. But more often than not gays just gross God out too much for him to bother; Satan tends to hook them on the hot, throbbing man-cock at a young age anyway.

And, well... if you love hot, throbbing man-cock more than the Holy Creator who owns all that you are, you shouldn't sit at the table with the chosen few who got with the program and repented their sinful ways and came to love God above all else. But at least God can put you to some use by filling Heaven with the pleasing odor of your ever-burning flesh.

Treacle Worshipper · 03-08-2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abel Stable
That is analogous to saying: "Being dark skinned isn't wrong or evil. Living a dark skinned lifestyle is." The logic is the same and makes no sense either way. And what does "lifestyle" mean anyway? If you are gay, how do you avoid it? Christians seem to mention "spiritual warfare"- often which turns out to be just insidious doublethink. For example- is this your suggestion to how a homosexual should live?:

(thinking: ) "Damn look at the nice package on him! I mean no! No no! Bad! Dirty! Evil thought! No! JesusJesusJesusJesussavemywickedfilthybody..."

That's really very healthy...

Well, that's what I did when I was in the church. (Except I'm female, so not quite like that

) And it is really very healthy. I'd recommend it to anyone

I'd also really like to know what a "gay lifestyle" is. My current lifestyle overwhelmingly involves surfing the web, learning Welsh, and waiting to get a wheelchair so I can get out more often (

)
Gemma Therese, can you explain what is so "gay" about that?
TW

christ-on-a-stick · 03-08-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

And, well... if you love hot, throbbing man-cock more than the Holy Creator who owns all that you are, you shouldn't sit at the table with the chosen few who got with the program and repented their sinful ways and came to love God above all else. But at least God can put you to some use by filling Heaven with the pleasing odor of your ever-burning flesh.

LMAO Psycho Economist!!!

Good question, Salmon of Doubt. As a bisexual, I would wonder as well what the heck was up with God creating me to be attracted to BOTH sexes hypothetically of course since I don't believe in said-such fictional creature). I mean, geez, way to confuse me, God. Especially in my pre-teen and adolescent years, when I was still fundified, it was pretty weird to be attracted to boys which I could talk about/explore, but also to have these funny feelings about other girls which I just *knew* was evil-bad-wrong and why oh why am I afflicted with this, Lord, when I am doing everything I can to follow you???

Abel Stable -

Quote:

That is analogous to saying: "Being dark skinned isn't wrong or evil. Living a dark skinned lifestyle is." The logic is the same and makes no sense either way.

Well said.

Gemma,

Quote:

Well, it convinced me. And I'm still a sinner, trying not to be, but I know I can do nothing to warrant God's hatred.

Heck, if you ask me nothing says "hatred" like eternal torture in a pit of fire.

JEST2ASK · 03-08-2003, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Salmon of Doubt

And saying that it is a choice to be gay is not an answer, as all available evidence shows that people are gay from birth, probably because of hormone imbalances in the brain.

?

(minor nit pick)

I am sure not your intent but if sexual preference is on a spectrum .............. does not 'hormone imbalance" as a cause / contributing factor ... imply treatable illness?

Oh and excellant question .....the answers of a certain poster I find laugable to the point of sadness.....

Hedwig · 03-08-2003, 07:54 PM

I'm bisexual and most of my friends are gay or bisexual and I'm still trying to figure out what a "gay lifestyle" is. As far as I can tell it involves getting up every day, going to class, going to work, eating some dinner, watching some TV, going to bed, and sometimes going out on weekends. What part of that "gay lifestyle" does god dislike?

"Gay" is an every day term for a particular sexual orientation. It's hardly a lifestyle.

(Sorry, everyone. The description "gay lifestyle" is something that bugs me...carry on.

)

Salmon of Doubt · 03-09-2003, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JEST2ASK
(minor nit pick)

I am sure not your intent but if sexual preference is on a spectrum .............. does not 'hormone imbalance" as a cause / contributing factor ... imply treatable illness?

Oh, not at all. The general idea as I understand it is that it is the mother who has the hormone imbalance, and that affects the developing brain. The amount of testosterone affects how gay you are. Then when you're born, the brain has finished the first part of its development, and the relevent area of the brain is pre set by those hormones to be gay, bi or straight.

Old Man · 03-09-2003, 06:04 AM

Homosexuality is a matter of choice. Although it is a lifestyle, I am not sure if "lifestyle" helps understanding the reason for indulgence in specific acts of homsexuality.

One chooses to perform a homosexual act. If one is so incapable of self-control that performing a homosexual act is beyond choice, one ought to be comitted to a lunatic asylum. However, there is reason to believe that it is not beyond choice for the vast majority of people who commit homosexual acts.

Given that it is a matter of choice, the question arises as to why do people make choices to perform homosexual acts. The answer is sometimes they have a desire to, but sometimes it is mere experimentation. But people also have desires to rob, murder, take drugs, rape and steal. But they don't always give in to them, and the desire often fades if resisted or ignored. Its called temptation. The bible teaches that sin comes through giving in to temptation, but temptation can be resisted.

The question arises as to why some poeple get these desires. The bible's answer is because of previously wilfully chosen ungodly lifestyle AND contempt for the knowledge of God.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

If one habitually gives in to these things, and despises the truth, the desires of the flesh get more and more hold over you, and one becomes enslaved to baser and baser desires. The bad news for practicioners of homosexual acts is that homosexuality is near the bottom. It means you've fallen a vey long way from the optimal state/way of life that you were created for.

Its a slippery slope, but the slope starts off in youth. Its like drugs or prostitution. Initially, it may start with experimentation, but by old/middle age, one becames hardened and incapable of choosing any other way. The bible records a person in that state as dead - i.e. ruled completely by the desires of his flesh, rather than reason & respect for other people.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing that homosexuals deliberately ignore is the affect that a homosexual act has on another person. If they were not a practicing homosexual before, it is certainly helping them become one. Frequently, the bible terms homosexuality as "abuse of men". Abuse of another person is diametrically opposed to loving them in the Christ like sense of the word love.

Treacle Worshipper · 03-09-2003, 07:31 AM

Oh dear... Here goes.

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
Homosexuality is a matter of choice.

No, it is not. (See Salmon of Doubt's post.) Homosexual acts are a matter of choice. I did not choose to be bisexual. If I never touch another person again in any way in my entire life I will still be bisexual. Do you understand this?

Quote:

Although it is a lifestyle, I am not sure if "lifestyle" helps understanding the reason for indulgence in specific acts of homsexuality.

I am still interested in hearing from any Xian who can tell me what a "homosexual lifestyle" is. I'm not the only one who doesn't understand this. (See Hedwig's post.)

Quote:

One chooses to perform a homosexual act.

Thank you. We agree on something.

Quote:

Given that it is a matter of choice, the question arises as to why do people make choices to perform homosexual acts.

Ummm... They enjoy them?

Quote:

But people also have desires to rob, murder, take drugs, rape and steal.

So, in your view, any homosexual act is equivalent to the above list of crimes. Why do you hold this view?

Quote:

The question arises as to why some poeple get these desires. The bible's answer is because of previously wilfully chosen ungodly lifestyle AND contempt for the knowledge of God.

Please can you explain how I realised I was gay when I was still in a relationship with god? Why did god subject me to this when I had not rejected him, and in fact was following him to the best of my knowledge and ability?

Quote:

The bible records a person in that state as dead - i.e. ruled completely by the desires of his flesh, rather than reason & respect for other people.

I'm afraid I utterly fail to see why being gay rules out being reasonable and respectful. Perhaps you can enlighten me? This is not my experience of the many gay people of all ages whom I have met.

Quote:

Another thing that homosexuals deliberately ignore is the affect that a homosexual act has on another person. If they were not a practicing homosexual before, it is certainly helping them become one.

Well, if they don't have any problem with that, I don't see that it's anyone else's business.

Quote:

Frequently, the bible terms homosexuality as "abuse of men".

Once again, female sexuality becomes invisible with a sweep of the magic holy book.

Quote:

Abuse of another person is diametrically opposed to loving them in the Christ like sense of the word love.

So far, you've given us a pretty detailed view of your interpretation of the Bible's views on gays. You still haven't answered the question: Why does god make people gay and then condemn them to celibacy or hell for being how he made them?
Yours in anticipation,
TW

Psycho Economist · 03-09-2003, 09:43 AM

Ordinarily I wouldn't presume to speak for someone, let alone someone I disagree with, but I'm still in a somewhat cynical mood so all bets are off.

Quote:

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
So, in your view, any homosexual act is equivalent to the above list of crimes. Why do you hold this view?

Don't expect anything but some elaboration of, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it."

Salmon of Doubt · 03-09-2003, 09:48 AM

A good comprehensive post, TW

I was going to post pretty much the same response.

I'd also be very interested in reading a bible passage that talks about all the sins like rape, murder, theft, and then says "But the greatest of these sins is homosexuality"

And I also don't see how enjoying a sex life with anyone else necessarily precludes being kind and respectful to other people.

edit- I'm still interested in anyone who knows a gay person who knew they were gay and then subsequently converted to Christianity.

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03-08-2003, 01:07 PM	#11
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	I can't resist being a cynical ex-Christian for a moment, and letting my inner fundy answer this one... See, God is like a fabulously wealthy man who in his wealth can buy anything except the true love of another. If he made things that loved him without choice, he would know in his heart that it was sychophancy, and the love would not be pleasing to Him. But he can create beings with the independent capacity for freely-given love. Now, he could have made us all and put us in heaven, but that would be silly. Everyone would be so amazed by his awesome grace that people who wouldn't pick Him to love would have nothing else to devote themselves to, and people whose love was fair-weathered would not ever have their love tested. And God would be left with the sychophancy problem all over again. So God made the Earth, and he made us, and he filled Earth with all sorts of distractions... things we could love more than Him, like the world itself, or other people, or money, or demons sent to promlugate false religions, or even hot, throbbing man-cock. Now, when God made the world, he didn't think that guys would try to "do" other guys. He knew that by creating brotherly love, some men would tend to be confused and would be attracted to other men... but it never occured to him that they might fornicate! And when it did happen, it grossed God out, and he told the people not to do it. Our job as God's children is to resist all the temptations God put in the universe, and well, non-reproductive sex is one of them. Now gay people don't have to pretend to be straight, they just can't fornicate: the same rule applies to us normal people. If God means for a gay to have sex, he will make a woman who will love him as he is and want to bear his children, and the gay will know it's his duty to impregnate her. But more often than not gays just gross God out too much for him to bother; Satan tends to hook them on the hot, throbbing man-cock at a young age anyway. And, well... if you love hot, throbbing man-cock more than the Holy Creator who owns all that you are, you shouldn't sit at the table with the chosen few who got with the program and repented their sinful ways and came to love God above all else. But at least God can put you to some use by filling Heaven with the pleasing odor of your ever-burning flesh.

03-08-2003, 07:54 PM	#15
Hedwig Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,921	I'm bisexual and most of my friends are gay or bisexual and I'm still trying to figure out what a "gay lifestyle" is. As far as I can tell it involves getting up every day, going to class, going to work, eating some dinner, watching some TV, going to bed, and sometimes going out on weekends. What part of that "gay lifestyle" does god dislike? "Gay" is an every day term for a particular sexual orientation. It's hardly a lifestyle. (Sorry, everyone. The description "gay lifestyle" is something that bugs me...carry on. )

03-09-2003, 06:04 AM	#17
Old Man Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 188	Homosexuality is a matter of choice. Although it is a lifestyle, I am not sure if "lifestyle" helps understanding the reason for indulgence in specific acts of homsexuality. One chooses to perform a homosexual act. If one is so incapable of self-control that performing a homosexual act is beyond choice, one ought to be comitted to a lunatic asylum. However, there is reason to believe that it is not beyond choice for the vast majority of people who commit homosexual acts. Given that it is a matter of choice, the question arises as to why do people make choices to perform homosexual acts. The answer is sometimes they have a desire to, but sometimes it is mere experimentation. But people also have desires to rob, murder, take drugs, rape and steal. But they don't always give in to them, and the desire often fades if resisted or ignored. Its called temptation. The bible teaches that sin comes through giving in to temptation, but temptation can be resisted. The question arises as to why some poeple get these desires. The bible's answer is because of previously wilfully chosen ungodly lifestyle AND contempt for the knowledge of God. Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: If one habitually gives in to these things, and despises the truth, the desires of the flesh get more and more hold over you, and one becomes enslaved to baser and baser desires. The bad news for practicioners of homosexual acts is that homosexuality is near the bottom. It means you've fallen a vey long way from the optimal state/way of life that you were created for. Its a slippery slope, but the slope starts off in youth. Its like drugs or prostitution. Initially, it may start with experimentation, but by old/middle age, one becames hardened and incapable of choosing any other way. The bible records a person in that state as dead - i.e. ruled completely by the desires of his flesh, rather than reason & respect for other people. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Another thing that homosexuals deliberately ignore is the affect that a homosexual act has on another person. If they were not a practicing homosexual before, it is certainly helping them become one. Frequently, the bible terms homosexuality as "abuse of men". Abuse of another person is diametrically opposed to loving them in the Christ like sense of the word love.

03-09-2003, 09:48 AM	#20
Salmon of Doubt Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: UK Posts: 150	A good comprehensive post, TW I was going to post pretty much the same response. I'd also be very interested in reading a bible passage that talks about all the sins like rape, murder, theft, and then says "But the greatest of these sins is homosexuality" And I also don't see how enjoying a sex life with anyone else necessarily precludes being kind and respectful to other people. edit- I'm still interested in anyone who knows a gay person who knew they were gay and then subsequently converted to Christianity.

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