Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Beetle · 04-02-2003, 09:41 AM

I've always found it strange (and a little humorous) that the branches of christianity that are trying to "save" the religion by modernizing it, and stripping all mythology from it (and a big "hello" to Bishop Spong here), are losing members hand over fist, while the narrow, judgemental, hellfire sects are growing like weeds (i.e. Southern Baptists).

happyboy · 04-02-2003, 09:46 AM

that's because the fundie crew of xtianity gives the christians easy answers. people are lazy; they want easy answers with which to run their lives. liberal xtianity has taken those easy answers away, along with all the mythology.

happyboy

HelenM · 04-02-2003, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Diabolo est advocatus: but had she been a bad person, it would be because of her Christianity, wouldn't it?

Absolutely!

Shake · 04-02-2003, 11:10 AM

I can understand respecting the fundies (be they Xian, Muslim or whatever) for not only sticking to, but actually knowing what their religion is truly about, and its history. I also understand the frustration at those whose religion is more, shall we say, al a carte. You must realize that there a lot of folks for whom religion is more of a tradition than anything that they really think seriously about. IMHO, if more so-called Xians actually spent time studying their Bibles and finding out about their churches instead of just going blindly to the same kind that their parents and grandparents went to, then we'd see more deconversions, or at least conversions to other faiths. Go ahead, ask Joe Average Xian about his church and what his Faith stands for. He may know, but there are many who don't. Certain sects are better at education than others. I think that the malaise over learning about religion is why there seem to be more folks joining non-denominational churches. They're pretty sure they believe in a god, but they need to flesh out the rest of their beliefs, or they just haven't found a good fit, and enjoy the social aspect of attending a church. For some, I'm sure it fills a need or desire to belong to something. As an atheist, sure, I stopped belonging to a church, but I feel that doesn't mean there is nothing for me to belong to ... I'm still part of humanity. I belong to nature and to the world.

To me, the non-denominationals (Unitarians, etc.) are simply lazy. Maybe they just can't decide, or maybe they're not strong enough to get by on their own. I kind of agree with a lot of what's been said here ... but at least it's easier to have a normal conversation with a liberal Xian without fear of them throwing in something about Jebus, God, or Satan.

BioBeing · 04-02-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by happyboy
true. most christians today have no idea what's in their bible, and seem to practice a religion i call "salad bar-ism." in salad bar-ism, a believer picks and chooses what parts of the bible to believe in.

happyboy

I love the description!

I tried starting a thread recently asking "What is a Christian?" because it seems to me that it really can mean anything one wants it to be. There are even "Christian atheists"!!! Basically, it seems that one can not believe in God, not believe in Jesus as the Son of God, not go to Church, not pray, and still be Christian... hmmm sounds kinda like me. Maybe I am a Christian! (I do "celebrate" Christmas, after all). And I thought I was just a simple old atheist!

It is my personal opinion that if one is going to do something, then one must do it properly. Thus, if one is going to accept that the Bible is the work of God, then one must accept it as the work of God, in its totallity. Once you start to say that one bit is merely allegory, or "of course, Genesis isn't meant literally..." then you have admitted that the entire thing is probably just a piece of fiction. And, if you accept the whole thing verbatim, you probably need medication.

MattofVA · 04-02-2003, 01:51 PM

I'm glad to see a substantial number of people realize all this(or even understood what the hell I was saying in the first place, afraid I rambled too much. Does anyone here think that liberal christians set modern people up to be seduced by fundamentalism by giving off the impression that the bible/christianity is benign?

beth · 04-02-2003, 02:35 PM

I just don't feel the way you do. I see fundamentalism as dangerous. If Christianity as a whole were more liberal, I think that things would be better. The thing that hooks the fundies, I think, is the absolutes. The absolute of hell; the absolute of salvation and it's reward, heaven; the absolute of the Bible being infallible; the absolute of belief. I think that liberal Christians often leave the church because they realize that they no longer need religion. Sure, some may get ensnared into fundamentalism, but fundies tend to use mind games to confuse people into accepting and believing. I see Liberal Christianity as something good. Maybe it is the beginning of the end of Christianity and it's strangle hold?

lpetrich · 04-02-2003, 02:37 PM

I'm sure that HelenM's ladyfriend was being very selective with the Bible, because some of Jesus Christ's teachings are rather uncompassionate, like how one must desert one's family to become one of his followers. And I find his action toward a certain fig tree to be VERY uncompassionate. Also, some of his teachings are rather impractical, like "sell everything you have and give the money to the poor".

And I seriously suspect that Bishop Spong is being more honest about his beliefs than many of his colleagues. Non-Fundies seem unwilling to challenge fundamentalism directly, for whatever curious reason.

HelenM · 04-02-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
I'm sure that HelenM's ladyfriend

It's not a big deal but I think you meant blondegoddess's ladyfriend...

Quote:

was being very selective with the Bible, because some of Jesus Christ's teachings are rather uncompassionate, like how one must desert one's family to become one of his followers.

There is a lot of hyperbole in the gospels, which Christians take into account in applying what is in there.

Quote:

And I find his action toward a certain fig tree to be VERY uncompassionate.

I'm afraid I can't get that excited about cruelty to fig trees...

Quote:

Also, some of his teachings are rather impractical, like "sell everything you have and give the money to the poor".

I've never heard any Christian claim that Jesus' teachings were 'practical'. If anything Christians would say they are not practical when compared to the values of people whose goal is to accumulate all they can in this life.

Quote:

And I seriously suspect that Bishop Spong is being more honest about his beliefs than many of his colleagues.

I don't see why you'd think that. Do you consider it honest of him to stand in church and recite the historic creeds, on the basis that he gives it 'his own meaning'?

It's hard to know who is being honest. But as far as I can tell the conservative Christians I know are honest; they truly believe what they say they believe. And Bishop Spong is honest in general in saying that he defines many Christian concepts differently than conservative Christians.

Quote:

Non-Fundies seem unwilling to challenge fundamentalism directly, for whatever curious reason.

I hadn't noticed that they were. The Jesus Seminar folks seem quite willing to criticize fundamentalist beliefs.

Helen

gcameron · 04-02-2003, 03:08 PM

I have respect for those theists who leave me the hell alone. However they parse their holy book is their business. As liberal theists seem more likely to leave me the hell alone, more likely not to fly aircraft into skyscrapers, and more likely not to excise science education from public schools, I tend to prefer them.

04-02-2003, 01:51 PM	#36
MattofVA Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Harrisonburg, VA Posts: 112	hmmm I'm glad to see a substantial number of people realize all this(or even understood what the hell I was saying in the first place, afraid I rambled too much. Does anyone here think that liberal christians set modern people up to be seduced by fundamentalism by giving off the impression that the bible/christianity is benign?

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04-02-2003, 09:41 AM	#31
Beetle Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Massachusetts State Home for the Bewildered Posts: 961	I've always found it strange (and a little humorous) that the branches of christianity that are trying to "save" the religion by modernizing it, and stripping all mythology from it (and a big "hello" to Bishop Spong here), are losing members hand over fist, while the narrow, judgemental, hellfire sects are growing like weeds (i.e. Southern Baptists).

04-02-2003, 09:46 AM	#32
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	that's because the fundie crew of xtianity gives the christians easy answers. people are lazy; they want easy answers with which to run their lives. liberal xtianity has taken those easy answers away, along with all the mythology. happyboy

04-02-2003, 11:10 AM	#34
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	I can understand respecting the fundies (be they Xian, Muslim or whatever) for not only sticking to, but actually knowing what their religion is truly about, and its history. I also understand the frustration at those whose religion is more, shall we say, al a carte. You must realize that there a lot of folks for whom religion is more of a tradition than anything that they really think seriously about. IMHO, if more so-called Xians actually spent time studying their Bibles and finding out about their churches instead of just going blindly to the same kind that their parents and grandparents went to, then we'd see more deconversions, or at least conversions to other faiths. Go ahead, ask Joe Average Xian about his church and what his Faith stands for. He may know, but there are many who don't. Certain sects are better at education than others. I think that the malaise over learning about religion is why there seem to be more folks joining non-denominational churches. They're pretty sure they believe in a god, but they need to flesh out the rest of their beliefs, or they just haven't found a good fit, and enjoy the social aspect of attending a church. For some, I'm sure it fills a need or desire to belong to something. As an atheist, sure, I stopped belonging to a church, but I feel that doesn't mean there is nothing for me to belong to ... I'm still part of humanity. I belong to nature and to the world. To me, the non-denominationals (Unitarians, etc.) are simply lazy. Maybe they just can't decide, or maybe they're not strong enough to get by on their own. I kind of agree with a lot of what's been said here ... but at least it's easier to have a normal conversation with a liberal Xian without fear of them throwing in something about Jebus, God, or Satan.

04-02-2003, 02:35 PM	#37
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	I just don't feel the way you do. I see fundamentalism as dangerous. If Christianity as a whole were more liberal, I think that things would be better. The thing that hooks the fundies, I think, is the absolutes. The absolute of hell; the absolute of salvation and it's reward, heaven; the absolute of the Bible being infallible; the absolute of belief. I think that liberal Christians often leave the church because they realize that they no longer need religion. Sure, some may get ensnared into fundamentalism, but fundies tend to use mind games to confuse people into accepting and believing. I see Liberal Christianity as something good. Maybe it is the beginning of the end of Christianity and it's strangle hold?

04-02-2003, 02:37 PM	#38
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I'm sure that HelenM's ladyfriend was being very selective with the Bible, because some of Jesus Christ's teachings are rather uncompassionate, like how one must desert one's family to become one of his followers. And I find his action toward a certain fig tree to be VERY uncompassionate. Also, some of his teachings are rather impractical, like "sell everything you have and give the money to the poor". And I seriously suspect that Bishop Spong is being more honest about his beliefs than many of his colleagues. Non-Fundies seem unwilling to challenge fundamentalism directly, for whatever curious reason.

04-02-2003, 03:08 PM	#40
gcameron Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Western U.S.A. Posts: 293	I have respect for those theists who leave me the hell alone. However they parse their holy book is their business. As liberal theists seem more likely to leave me the hell alone, more likely not to fly aircraft into skyscrapers, and more likely not to excise science education from public schools, I tend to prefer them.

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