Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Geebo · 02-10-2002, 05:20 AM

I just thought.

xians say:
1. We have the free choice of good or evil.
2. Those who chose good in our finite lives will go to heaven for infinity.

Do individuals remain free thinkers in heaven?

If yes, then because it's eternity they will all, at least once choose evil, kill someone, have sex with a Jesus etc. There will also be a point where everything is evil in heaven. At the same time the reverse would be true for hell!!

If there is only good in heaven then there is no free choice. Then they fall foul of their own arguement that God couldnt have created the world without evil because of free choice, although it would then run on the same principles as heaven!!

critical thinking made ez · 02-10-2002, 06:46 AM

Interesting... Satan and a good portion of angels comitted evil while in Heaven so we might assume that one must always have a choice of doing wrong.

It appears as though there is already a history of evil in heaven. Since God never changes etc. there should continue to be evil there. While in hell, one couldn't sin unless maybe he did something good for someone, and that wouldn't be evil in our context of the word, therefore, evil can't exist in hell.

I see your point, good one!

Metacrock · 02-10-2002, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geebo:
<strong>I just thought.

xians say:
1. We have the free choice of good or evil.
2. Those who chose good in our finite lives will go to heaven for infinity.

Do individuals remain free thinkers in heaven?

If yes, then because it's eternity they will all, at least once choose evil, kill someone, have sex with a Jesus etc. There will also be a point where everything is evil in heaven. At the same time the reverse would be true for hell!!

If there is only good in heaven then there is no free choice. Then they fall foul of their own arguement that God couldnt have created the world without evil because of free choice, although it would then run on the same principles as heaven!!</strong>

Do you really think you've said something here? Tell me, has it never occurred to you to actually look up some theologians and read their works to see what they say? You really think that in 2000 years on ever thought of this?

GunnerJ · 02-10-2002, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Do you really think you've said something here? Tell me, has it never occurred to you to actually look up some theologians and read their works to see what they say? You really think that in 2000 years on ever thought of this?

Do you have an actual argument Meatcock?

Automaton · 02-10-2002, 02:18 PM

You raise an interesting point. I guess the theist could say that someone so enveloped in the "light of God" could never do evil. But this makes you wonder why so many church-goers are just so downright evil.

critical thinking made ez · 02-10-2002, 08:00 PM

Looks like the Church gave us a great example of the point of this post today. Here is the headline from the Boston Globe.

DA's Given 49 Names of Priests
Cardinal says records are being combed

By Stephen Kurkjian, Globe Staff, 2/9/2002

he Boston Archdiocese late Thursday turned over to authorities the names of 49 priests it says have been accused of sexual abuse of children, bringing the number of priests whom the church has named to as many as 87, in referrals to prosecutors in the past eight days.

Geebo · 02-11-2002, 07:03 AM

Metacrock: Do you really think you've said something here?... You really think that in 2000 years on ever thought of this?

I AM NEW HERE! And I fully appreciate and expect experienced 'posters' to tell me when Im writing naive crap and repeating something that's been said 100 times.

But, at the risk of sounding naive and repetative, what actually are your arguements?

StarkStirner · 02-11-2002, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geebo:
<strong>
If there is only good in heaven then there is no free choice.
</strong>

Non sequitur.

Presupposing that all heavenly individuals enjoy free will, we can examine the options of one celestial creature in a given situation where both evil and good are possible choices.

According to our presupposition, that being can freely choose good. Otherwise, free will wouldn't exist. In fact, we can extend this possibility of freely choosing good to every situation this individual will ever encounter. If you deny the individual the "good" choice in any one of these situations, you will have limited free will. What applies to one individual, applies to all. Therefore, all individuals in heaven have the choice of always choosing good. While they still have the ability to do evil in each and every situation, they always freely do the good thing.

Therefore, free will is compatible with a benevolent heaven.

A possible, theistic explanation for the discrepancy between heaven and earth in regards to evil could be the higher moral stature of "people" inhabiting the skies.

StarkStirner · 02-11-2002, 08:05 AM

On a related note, this argument, of course, works against the notion of a benevolent, omniscient God being compatible with a world of evil human actions where free will exists.

Geebo · 02-11-2002, 02:14 PM

ME:If there is only good in heaven then there is no free choice.

I meant, if there's only a choice of good (and no choice to do evil) in heaven then there's no free choice, and then there's no point in offering us the choice now when all we get is no choice for infinity! It's illogical.

If there is a choice of both, for infinity, then everyone will do some evil sometime in heaven (like satan)

02-10-2002, 05:20 AM	#1
Geebo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 13	Heaven is evil and hell good! I just thought. xians say: 1. We have the free choice of good or evil. 2. Those who chose good in our finite lives will go to heaven for infinity. Do individuals remain free thinkers in heaven? If yes, then because it's eternity they will all, at least once choose evil, kill someone, have sex with a Jesus etc. There will also be a point where everything is evil in heaven. At the same time the reverse would be true for hell!! If there is only good in heaven then there is no free choice. Then they fall foul of their own arguement that God couldnt have created the world without evil because of free choice, although it would then run on the same principles as heaven!!

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02-10-2002, 06:46 AM	#2
critical thinking made ez Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 536	Interesting... Satan and a good portion of angels comitted evil while in Heaven so we might assume that one must always have a choice of doing wrong. It appears as though there is already a history of evil in heaven. Since God never changes etc. there should continue to be evil there. While in hell, one couldn't sin unless maybe he did something good for someone, and that wouldn't be evil in our context of the word, therefore, evil can't exist in hell. I see your point, good one!

02-10-2002, 02:18 PM	#5
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	You raise an interesting point. I guess the theist could say that someone so enveloped in the "light of God" could never do evil. But this makes you wonder why so many church-goers are just so downright evil.

02-10-2002, 08:00 PM	#6
critical thinking made ez Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: San Antonio TX Posts: 536	Looks like the Church gave us a great example of the point of this post today. Here is the headline from the Boston Globe. DA's Given 49 Names of Priests Cardinal says records are being combed By Stephen Kurkjian, Globe Staff, 2/9/2002 he Boston Archdiocese late Thursday turned over to authorities the names of 49 priests it says have been accused of sexual abuse of children, bringing the number of priests whom the church has named to as many as 87, in referrals to prosecutors in the past eight days.

02-11-2002, 07:03 AM	#7
Geebo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 13	Metacrock: Do you really think you've said something here?... You really think that in 2000 years on ever thought of this? I AM NEW HERE! And I fully appreciate and expect experienced 'posters' to tell me when Im writing naive crap and repeating something that's been said 100 times. But, at the risk of sounding naive and repetative, what actually are your arguements?

02-11-2002, 08:05 AM	#9
StarkStirner Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7	On a related note, this argument, of course, works against the notion of a benevolent, omniscient God being compatible with a world of evil human actions where free will exists.

02-11-2002, 02:14 PM	#10
Geebo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 13	ME:If there is only good in heaven then there is no free choice. I meant, if there's only a choice of good (and no choice to do evil) in heaven then there's no free choice, and then there's no point in offering us the choice now when all we get is no choice for infinity! It's illogical. If there is a choice of both, for infinity, then everyone will do some evil sometime in heaven (like satan)

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