dk

For the 4th time I'm not arguing whether the U.S. is or was a Christian Nation. I'm factually stating the U.S. Constitution was first interpreted as a purely secular document in the Mid 20th Century. I make the point to raise the issue of "Secularism" as doctrinally hostile to religious liberty.

A founding principles of the U.S. is religious liberty, My point is the exclusivity promulgated by secular doctrines are unreliable, unprincipled and exclusionary.

IvanK

The "missing article" argument is an old chestnut that has been tried and failed. I'm no Arabist, but the fact that someone may have found an Arabic copy of the Treaty of Tripoli in which Article 11 had been replaced by some rambling letter to some Sultan is entirely beside the point. All English translations, and in particular the official translation in English made by Joel Barlow (who was a minister of the Church as well as of the state and served as a military chaplain as well as a diplomat), include Article 11 as I have stated it. It was that language that passed the U.S. Senate unanimously and was signed into effect by the President without a word of objection from any quarter. That some copy in Arabic dug up much later by someone embarrassed over the frankly secular meaning of Article 11 may have contained some different phraseology is absolutely meaningless to the argument that no one -- absolutely no one -- in the U.S. in the 1790s objected to the Congress and President endorsing the idea that the U.S. was not, repeat not, in any way to be considered a "Christian nation." And in fact it adds fuel to the fire of the argument that the Constitution is a secular document that has been gradually eroded by the intrusions of mostly Protestant believers.

You seem to have a more thorough knowledge of what "secular doctrine" is than I do. In my world most secularists do not object at all to public discourse on any subject, which is why we call ourselves freethinkers and believe strongly in the value of truly free expression. What we do object to is government supported or endorsed expressions of particular religious beliefs, which the Supreme Court has additionaly held to violate the Constitution's Establishment Clause.

You're stating it but it's not factual. You need to read some more history, starting with Kramnick and Moore referenced above. The most powerful U.S. religious groups of the late 18th Century objected strenuously to the ratification of a U.S. Constitution that contained then and contains now no mention of the Christian religion or the Christian deity other than proscribing religious tests for public office. Their objections are in the historical record and argue that the Constitution was in fact a purely secular document from the beginning, reagardless of what the Court said or did not say in the mid-20th Century or at any time before or since.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

free12thinker

Judging by the overwhelming sighs from the religious right, I would say that we are moving towards secularism and away from Christianity.

Women are no longer submissive to their husbands
Prayer is no longer part of everyday school life
We no longer teach creationism
Corporations will not sponsor companies that are
religiously biased, nor will they do business
with such companies
Homosexuality and openly sexual expression are out
there for people to see, and we are accepting
them

When you refer to the odes to god in things like our pledge and our money and the like, you do so without acknowledging how these things came to be. There is overwhelming proof that we are only god seeking when times of turmoil exist (like now). The logo "In God We Trust" was put on coins during the Civil War, and regularly on our paper currency after World War II. People needed the feeling of God and the security his name brings.

I don't understand the rest of your argument. Are you arguing that life is better today than it was years ago? If you are, you can stop arguing, because I agree with you. It's much better today than it was 50 years ago. I didn't say life was peachy until the Supremes began.....anything?


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IvanK

You said:

My argument is that they never were the foundations of this country or its government. Those foundations rest in the Enlightenment and with individuals such as Voltaire, Locke and Hobbes. The U.S. Constitution was and is a secular document that has been gradually eroded by Protestantism. Back in the day:

Presidents never declared National Days of Prayer

Oaths of office and political speeches didn't always end with references to the Christian deity

There were no religious expressions on U.S. currency or postage stamps

There were no annual Christmas set-tos about religious symbols on public buildings or grounds; in many states of the Union Christmas wasn't even celebrated and certainly not as a Federal holiday

And, most importantly IMHO, the unanimous Senate and the President declared that the U.S. was in no way to be considered a "Christian nation"

free12thinker

I will agree with you on all fronts you mentioned above. And by the way, I am atheist, and in that, am not fighting for the preservation of Christianity or for their place in history as the "First Moral Foundation Laid in this Great Land of Ours".

Instead, I am simply looking at the moral majority that lived, and putting their manner of life into perspective. We used to:
Not tolerate homosexuality
Belittle women
Read the bible
Teach creationism
Promote male dominance
Control the media with all things "pure"
Censor things that we deemed "immoral" (Clothes, music, entertainment)
-All in all live a simple and more "meaningful" and practical life as defined by the bible.

We are no longer in that frame of mind. That's what I was getting at. I read these posts from the Agape Press everyday, and they all center on how this country is losing it's battle to maintain Christianity. I agree with them. The only difference is, they are sad to see this occur, I am happy to see this occur. This is the Christian Coalition who is admitting a slippage of Christianity. Their thougts are backed up by every conservative politician and family watchdog group; all of whom are pondering why America is losing it's morals and values.

I have a post under Miscellaneous Religious Discussions which simply asks the question, why?

IvanK

With the exception of the status of women, most of the other items in your latest list are perhaps true if we restrict ourselves to looking at how the country has changed since the 1920s. That's when creationism came into its own with the passage of Tennessee's anti-evolution law that resulted in the Scopes Monkey Trial. Censorship of the media and the mails came in with Comstock after the Civil War. And President Buchanan's homosexuality just before then was an open secret.

Which is my point. There was no point at which Christianity and the founding of Constitutional government in the U.S. intersected. Mostly Protestant believers chipped away at the secular foundations of the U.S. until we are where we are today. That they've lost some ground since the 1960s is heartening, but they're still out there and someday may again pose real threats to the secular democracy that is the United States.

free12thinker

I am centering on the 1940's and on, because (arguably) that's when the most swift changes came in the landscape of our country--our mentality.

Between the 1940's and the 1960's, we became more educated, we had more money and more time because we worked less--and in this--we were able to explore ourselves and compare ourselves as we really were--with that which the establishment viewed us.

In this, we began to question authority that diminished our freedoms of expression. Or freedoms of speech. Before the 1940's, things like pornography, rock-n-roll, rap music, open homosexuality, casual sex, women in the workplace, would have been unheard of in mainstream America.

They are not unheard of today--because we challenged the validity of their illegality. Why did the government condemn these things? We would not dare to ask 75 years ago. But we ask now.

And once again, I agree with you that the Constitution and Christianity were as separate as can be. Jefferson and Adams and Franklin and Paine were noted to detractors of organized religion. But that doesn't change the "Christian" base of households, and, later political tones that defined our train of thought well into the 20th Century.

IvanK

Just as before the 1920s, things like pornography, jazz, dirty blues, open homosexuality, casual sex and women in flapper dresses would have been unheard of in mainstream America? Plus ce change, plus le meme chose.

free12thinker

I agree that anytime before the 1940's (to include the 1920's as you stated), America noted a lack of tolerance for the things that we have both listed. In fact, the lack of tolerance was still pretty solid until the 1960's, but, there was a transformation around the 1940's.

Do you not agree with this? What sorts of things are happening that would give you the impression that Christianity is making a comeback, per say? Just curious.

IvanK

I think what I'm trying to get at is that there always has been a considerable minority that wants to overthrow the secular government instituted by the Founders and establish a Fundamentalist Protestant theocracy in the U.S. Their influence waxes and wanes and was felt more in certain periods, such as around the time of the Civil War (reference to their deity first placed on U.S. currency), after World War I (Scopes trial) and the 1970s-80s (Moral Majority and its fellow travelers). They are usually well-organized, well-disciplined and well-funded, but they are also always a minority and so cannot prevail for long in a democratic system such as ours. A couple factors, including backlash from believers who don't want to sully themselves with concerns over "worldly affairs" and their own hubris, such as passing inane laws and regulations that raise the controversy level and result in their removal from, for instance, the Kansas state school board, help to keep them down. But they remain a constant danger to our liberties, the well-known price of which is eternal vigilance.