Hired Gun

Now, now. Many racial profilers are indeed accused of racism and so it is not so far fetched to think that this was the direction in which you were headed. Why would you make the comment at all? You said: "I guess you're in favor of racial profilling too, because there is "truth behind sterotypes."

This technique is common and effective, but also fallacious. You were attempting an ad hominem, but committed a non-sequitur in the process. If you didn't think that racial profiling was wrong, why would you have bothered to comment? Really, you are not being honest here.

False. I can give logical reasons to quit my job; I can also give logical reasons to continue in my employment. Both arguments will use logical reasoning, but they will contain subjective choices that are weighted according to a different set of preferences. I can go into much greater detail. Just let me know if you would like a formal and in depth presentation.



Kant, Sartres, Hume, Hobbes, Rand, Aristocrates, Nietzschegaard...



Do you really think that I haven't questioned my conclusion? Do you really think that one day I just started tossing rose petals into the air while singing, 'Jesus Loves Me'?

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Are you really sure that you know it all wrt atheistic morality? You yourself said that you didn't start out as a nihilistic atheist. You statements that men are like termites seems to reflect your final state of belief before conversion. Yet, I know of no modern atheist thinkers who would agree that men are not significantly different and infinitly of more value than termites.[quote]

Correct. I started out as an apathetic atheist who thought that the idea of God was so ridiculous that it didn't require any further thought. But the more I took my atheism to its logical conclusion, the more nihilistic I became. Your 'modern atheist thinkers' are full of crap, in my opinion.



Yeah, right, I'm going to get right on that.

Say! Here's an idea! Why don't you present their points to me and I'll give you the counter arguments! That way we can debate instead of me writing an essay like a homework assignment. Or aren't you capable of presenting their points?

A.S.A. Jones

ex-xian

Welcomes to Puam and Hired Gun...forgive me for not extending them sooner.

Socrates? Is that you?

Hired Gun

My autobiographical account is true and accurate. I have dozens of essays, composed throughout high school and college, that will verify my atheistic, anti-Christian position.

A.S.A. Jones

Hired Gun

This is simply untrue. My husband is an atheist but he possesses integrity and character. Two of my past mentors, with whom I am still friends, display only the highest moral attributes, even by Christian standards. I was not this type of atheist. I had no logical reason to maintain the facade of morality and I therefore found reasons to indulge in immoral behavior.


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Alas, I have a degree in philosophy, so I ought to know that I have not a superior intellect, and that I do not know everything. I have no superior intellect, and I know it, and I'm not out in *proving* that my opinion is right to the rest of the world (I'm no missionary, not even a witness in your definition). That aside, you are just challinging for the sake of it.[quote]

Well, I am. I'm frightfully bored and I need these forums to unleash my intellect. By the way, the very best thinkers have always been drawn to philosophy, in my opinion. I'm sure that you could present an intelligent defense of your view. I'm sorry that I was so sarcastic towards you. It's just my Slytherin nature.

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Not that I have a problem with that, but give me some time to browse other forums (about morality and such). I'll meet you there.

All right. Just e-mail me to let me know.

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Since this is far too much offtopic, this will be my last comment here. I do not want to risk any severe beating by the moderators!

Ha ha, O.K.. I can't really take a beating because I don't recognize their authority

A.S.A. Jones

ex-xian

Really, I am being honest here. It's amazing that you have so much insight into me after knowing me only...well that's right, you don't know me at all. The only "attacking the man" that's going on here is when you attempt to show that I did so. Once again, very devious and deceptive...not very xian (and before you post any more latin, I realize the last sentence is ad hominem).


No, thanks, I like to get my instruction in critical thinking from people that actually engage in it. Arriving at a conclusion of a string of reasoning and weighing pros and cons of a decision are two different proceses.
Are you sure you actually read them? Kant wasn't an atheist, Plato held to god-like Ideas, and Aristotle believed in a "Prime Move"--not god, but not exactly atheistic either. Also is "Aristocrates" supposed to mean that you read both Aristotle and Socrates? If you have them, you would realize the vast differences in their philosophy, and the mistake in this amalgamation.

Of course I don't believe that. I believe that you sincerely questioned you atheistic beliefs, but, with all due respect, you missed my point. I was trying to say that you should continue to question what you believe, espicially since so many intelligent thinkers disagree with you conclusion about atheistic morality. A conclusion that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, contributed significantly so your conversion.

But you haven't cited any that you read. The two most modern in your list are Rand and Sarte. Do you think that the study of ethics stopped there. There has been, and continues to be, much work done in this area. I would recommend Alistair MacIntyre. I don't believe that he is currently an atheist, but his work on virtue and ethics are excellent, especially in light of what we're discussing.

I would like to, but you aren't giving me any clues about any modern authors you've read.

edit to correct vB code

Kevbo

Hired Gun: want to start a discussion on how morality works within an atheistic framework in the Moral Foundations & Principles section? I like your stuff, even though I disagree with it.

I suppose that many atheists become Christians because they weren't very good at atheism. It sounds like you might have been one of these. Being a secular humanist moral relativist I'm not going to fault you for that, because I'm not very good at motorcycle maintenance and therefore am not a mechanic, so I can see where you're coming from.

On second thought, maybe you converted because you lack the sharp, pointy little teeth that are so important to being an atheist. That's probably it

orac

Actually, you argued that you were a bad person because you had no reason to be good - you didn't see any difference between termites and people, remember?

Can I ask a really silly question?

You state that divine authority is needed in order to provide a logical basis for morality. That's fine, many other people have made this claim, too.

So, why do we need morals?

I'm completely serious here. For example, can you provide a single reason why murder is wrong other than "God said so"?

The reason I ask is that your statement seems to imply that you consider a logical moral value system to be a good thing - but you also seem to think that the definition of "good" relies completely and solely on the existance of God. This leaves me wondering what actually is your logical and rational basis for deciding that a logical moral system would be a good thing.

As an example, many people consider "thou shalt not kill" to be a good commandment, but are completely unable to rationalise why they think that. Can you answer this question? "God said so" may be a valid reason why you should obey - at least assuming God is real - but is there any other reason at all why this should considered to be a good commandment?

Oddly, if you do answer this question, you'll have to do so by justifying a moral value without reference to God, which you've claimed you can't do. (Before you get offended, I actually suspect you can answer this question - which is pretty much my point. If you have to, prove me wrong by saying you still don't know why murder is wrong, but I do hope you're a better person than that.)

Why (assuming you do) do you now believe people are different to termites? is there any reason other than "the Bible says so" or "God says so" ?


Incidentally, even if you believe that God is needed for morals to be "real", or to guarantee justice and punishment for all, this won't in and of itself cause God to be created. Proving God exists is not done by stating that God should exist or that God would be useful.

Hired Gun

Are you sure you know your philosophers? Kant was a practical Christian but he was agnostic in his philosophy.

I never mentioned Plato.


A 'Prime Move' could be an unstable isotope. Aristotle did not believe in a god(s).

Hence, the irony of humour.


[/b]I am an intelligent thinker in my own right. Don't tell me that free thinking has become trapped in the herd mentality.


I'll tell you the name of a modern day atheist philosopher with whom I am in agreement of certain key issues: Peter Singer. At least he realizes the reality to which logic leads.


Bottom Line: If our lives are products of random mutation and natural selection, we are only pretending to be worth more than a fungus. I don't care how any modern day philosopher tries to fluff it up and make it pretty. No matter what mental gymnastics he can perform for the audience, he will always land flat on his ass in front of a person who sincerely seeks the truth of this world's reality.

A.S.A. Jones

Hired Gun

Sure just give me the link and I'll start posting. Thanks for the compliment, too, by the way. As for the sharp, pointy little teeth, I still have those. They scare my pastor but he'll get over it.

A.S.A. Jones

Hired Gun

I also said that not everyone who holds to an atheistic philosophy will take that philosophy to its ultimate logical conclusion. Many atheists will remain blissfully ignorant; some will choose to act willfully ignorant.

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Can I ask a really silly question? You state that divine authority is needed in order to provide a logical basis for morality. That's fine, many other people have made this claim, too. So, why do we need morals?

We don't.

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I'm completely serious here. For example, can you provide a single reason why murder is wrong other than "God said so"?

No, I can't.

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The reason I ask is that your statement seems to imply that you consider a logical moral value system to be a good thing - but you also seem to think that the definition of "good" relies completely and solely on the existance of God. This leaves me wondering what actually is your logical and rational basis for deciding that a logical moral system would be a good thing.

I never make the claim that a logical moral value system is a good thing. I simply state that without divine authority, we have no logical basis for the promotion of any value system, no matter what we think of that system. I'm not so much concerned with the definition of 'good' as I am with an objective standard. The standard of morality cannot have an objective reality without divine authority.

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As an example, many people consider "thou shalt not kill" to be a good commandment, but are completely unable to rationalise why they think that. Can you answer this question? "God said so" may be a valid reason why you should obey - at least assuming God is real - but is there any other reason at all why this should considered to be a good commandment?

There is no other reason why this should be considered to be a good commandment. None. Zilch. Try to logical prove that killing is morally wrong. You will fail. Other than the reality of a god who declares killing to be morally wrong, there is no logically compelling reason for us to believe it is wrong.

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Oddly, if you do answer this question, you'll have to do so by justifying a moral value without reference to God, which you've claimed you can't do. (Before you get offended, I actually suspect you can answer this question - which is pretty much my point. If you have to, prove me wrong by saying you still don't know why murder is wrong, but I do hope you're a better person than that.)

Oh my! No, you have certainly mistaken me for someone else. I really have no other reason to logically believe that murder is wrong. I could be honest and say that it emotionally upsets me, but I always choose reason over my emotions. If our lives have no inherent purpose or value, we are only kidding ourselves when we establish the facade of morality.

Go ahead. Logically prove to me that murder is wrong.

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Why (assuming you do) do you now believe people are different to termites? is there any reason other than "the Bible says so" or "God says so" ?

If we are designed and loved by a god, we have inherent purpose and value as opposed to self-assigned, imaginary purpose and value.

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Incidentally, even if you believe that God is needed for morals to be "real", or to guarantee justice and punishment for all, this won't in and of itself cause God to be created. Proving God exists is not done by stating that God should exist or that God would be useful.

Yes, I am aware of the fallacy of consequence and never made the argument that God exists because of the ramifications of his non-existence. I did say that belief in God provides us with a better model for the reality in which we persist than does atheism, and that a model that increasingly approaches reality in its theory, becomes more of a reality in and of itself.

A.S.A. Jones