Loren Pechtel

I don't think anyone who saved themselves for marriage would in retrospect prefer to have done otherwise unless it turned out there were sexual problems that meant they wouldn't have married had they known. Such people probably wouldn't admit it.

Viti

Nothing from Odemus except more hand wringing and cries of "what about the children". Odemus, you have yet to provide any evidence for any of your claims. Raise your kid how you want, but keep in mind there is a chance she will choose to rebel against your enforced set of values...I have seen it. Sometimes (not always) the rebellion is in direct proportion to the repression.

Ut

In Quebec and in Western Europe, you only have to say "abstinence until marriage" to elicit uncontrollable laughter. I mean, that's so 19th century.

(And yes, your "abstinence-only" sex "education" programs are a laughingstock here)

Ion

I was living for eleven years in France.
The prostitutes there, were getting a pension plan from the government.
At all levels, I remember France as a very hedonist place, sex-wise.

When in Canada after that, I read in a newspaper:
'These Dutch: how UnAmerican'.
It was about the Dutch government giving brothel passes to the unemployed, so that social tensions stay low.

luvluv

Hi kids!

Sorry about my prolonged absence. I was busy at work this week and decided to give myself a vacation from saving the world.

I have to start off with a confession in the interests of full disclosure.

I have tried to be honest with you folks about the fact that I have been, to say the least, acquainted with the consumption end of the pornography industry for the greater portion of my adult life. In fact, from the age of 13 roughly to the age of 23, I have probably not missed a day in watching some form of pornography. Like Jamie L., I believe I was probably addicted to it, though I would have never probably put it in those terms.

To get to my point, although I was first converted in high school, I "backslid" in college and only reconverted to Christianity after college. I have been hardcore saved now for three years, but in the first year I had serious struggles with pornography. I have put it behind me now, I believe, but not without having to put some severe restrictions on myself. One of the main reasons I post on my brother's computer and not on my own is because I do not want to have a super-highway to pornography sitting in my bedroom twenty-four hours a day. My home computer does not have internet access.

The reason for my initial reluctance to enter this thread (besides the fact that I was working all week) is this... I believe I have seen the girl who was featured in the piece. I can't be sure, but the time frame is about right. If it was her, I saw her within my first few months of being a Christian. I was kind of thrown by that, and consequently I couldn't really bring myself to contributing to this thread until I had decided whether or not it would be right to admit to this. I felt like I couldn't in good conscious discuss this thread without admitting this, and for a few days I was not sure if I wanted to admit it. But I guess I drew some inspiration from Jamie L., and since I started this whole thing I had to come clean. So here I am.

Now that we got that out of the way, I am going to make some comments...

The best moral argument against pornography, in my mind, is the emotional state of many of the performers. I am sure it would be innacurate to claim that all, or perhaps even most, of the performers in the porn industry are mentally unhealthy, I think it would yet and still be conservative to say that on average, there is a better than 50% chance that, in any given porn film, at least ONE or more of the performers involved is in a great deal of personal pain.

I thought the special did a good job of highliting this reality. I'm surprised that more has not been made of her story on this thread. This is a girl who was abused as a child, who obviously has emotional issues, was actually in tears on the set on several occasions after her scenes, has suffered two nervous breakdowns, and is more than likely on drugs. Her career choice is obviously very painful to her mother, sister, and father.

There no doubt are people who are capable of handling the emotional and social ramifications of pornography. It would seem to me however that simple common sense would lead one to believe that these people constitute a minority, and that at least half of the people in pornography are doing emotional damage to themselves. I cannot now, nor ever, see any morally consistent way for me to sexually gratify myself via someone else's self-destruction. Since there is no good way for deciding who is emotionally stable and who is not, I believe that the argument can be made, completely apart from any reference to any deity or religious tradition, that watching pornograpy is immoral. Further, even for those performers who are in perfect emotional health, there is no telling the damge their decision to engage in pornograpy is doing to their parents, children, husbands, wives, grandparents, friends, etc. I do not see how the selfish gratification of my needs should require so many people to go through so much pain.

So, for all those who saw the special, I have a simple straightforward question for you: Seeing the emotional pain that this young girl endured and is enduring, would you feel that it is morally acceptable to gratify yourself with her image? Even if you were able to see that, behind the scenes, the images you are gratifiying yourself with are a great cause of emotional pain to her and to her family?

Viti

My accountant is in great emotional pain because he is very effeminate and has to defend his sexuality....one of his former employers skipped the country leaving him holding the bag and he has been fighting the IRS for a decade. Is it right for me to make him do my taxes when he is obviously in so much emotional turmoil?

You argument is meaningless luvluv

Gurdur

It might still be right (after all, you're paying him what he demands to do it), but it might be dangerous, since he's likely to make big mistakes.

Viti

LOL Gurdur...I know the whole story so I trust him

However, my point still stands I think. Nobody is holding a gun to these women's heads and making them perform sexual acts on film. They have chosen this line of work and they get paid (rather well) to do it. They could go work in an office, or at Walmart, or go to school or any number of things, but they CHOOSE freely to be in porn. If you talk to anyone in any industry you are bound to come across some sob stories...I just don't get why sex industry workers are seen as somehow "more" fucked up or in need of protection than the rest of us. In fact, I would say it's downright condescending.

Gurdur

Agreed wholeheartedly with this particular point; however, that's not your only point, and since Odemus and luvluv seem to be rather useless at making good arguments, I might as well take issue with my own private concerns.
In the mainstream, legal porn industry in the USA, yes. Agreed.
However, even in the USA there's illegal industry as well; and I'm thinking of the entire global scene whenever I write
Allow me to quibble.
It's not condescending to insist on the legal enforcement of very regular HIV tests for the porn workers; that would seem to be downright necessary.
As for being "fucked-up", I've met fucked-up personalities in every industry imaginable ---- as well as people preying on them; so your point about the porn industry being no different is quite good (and as I posted a while before, the casting couch is a real factor in Hollywood but not in the legal porn industry.

My own concerns are very real, but somewhat tangential to your own point --- so I'm a bit hesitant about voicing them.

christ-on-a-stick

Gurdur,

Please don't hesitate... I always want to hear what you have to say!!!

(LadyShea already said what I was going to say to luvluv, and much better than I would have I'm sure, so I'm going to leave it be.)