Freethought & Rationalism Archive

River · 06-24-2003, 04:39 PM

Selected Hadiths: [ Dajjal al- Masih/ Dark Messiah]

Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people , glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, " I warn you against him ( i.e the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him . No doubt , Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed , and Allah is not one-eyed." [ Volume 4, Book 55, Number 533 Narrated by Ibn Umar]

" The Dajjal will emerge in a land in the east called Khurasan [Afghanistan/ Iran]....." [ Sahih, SM: 4072]

Dajjal translates to Deceiver in Arabic. Who is the one-eyed man from Khurasan ( Afghanistan) that single-handedly destroyed the good name of Islam. Islam once recognized as the Religion of Peace is now considered universally as the Religion of War. { Islam is derived from the hebrew root shalom=peace, the arabic silm= conditions of peace and aramaic word shalem= completion or perfection} Who is the figure that destroyed 2,000 year old Buddha statues ( which were not being worshipped) and ignored the pleas of UN. Who is this figure that claims to be descended from Prophet Muhammad yet no one has any record of his ancestry or history. Who is the only "man "alive " that wears Prophet Muhammad's Cloak?? Who declared himself the title "Amirul Momineem" a rank that has not been used by any Muslim anywhere in the last 1,000 years? And he declared himself the successor of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) amongst thousands of cheering Afghans. And Today, he declares Jihad on America .

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...n_taliban_dc_5

Have you been Deceived?

Y'all do not even know a specks worth of dirt in politics or religion ,believing yourselves to be something extraordinary.

This is not a time for the Muslim Ummah to lapse. This is a grave time in Human history. Why do we allow ourselves to be degraded , deceived? The Quran made man/woman the " Inheritors of the Earth and its Defenders". Why are we ignoring our responsibilities as our brother/sisters of all faiths are dying and suffering. Islam is an activist religion. We can not just stand here and watch.

Look at your $1 Bill. What do you see? You "see" the words inscribed " In God (Allah) we Trust"...now look closely do you see that pyramid with the "one-eyed" Freemasonic symbol....Look closer..............NOVUS ORDUS SECLORUM.......it writes New World (SECULAR) Order.......cant you see the hypocrisy.....have you been Deceived?

Biff the unclean · 06-24-2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
Who's got one eye and fits the description of this Dajjal thingy?

You had to ask

OOO EEEE OO Ah Ah
Ting Tang walla walla Bing Bang

(now we'll see how old you are)

diana · 06-24-2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aatayyab
Wow,

This is just unexplainably great thread. I was NEVER expecting such thing or discussion about ANY subject ANYWHERE. Congrats.... Internet Infidels Discussion Forums.... let me assure you, that as a temporary being on this earth just like many zillion of human beings of past, present or (uncertatin) future, I would like to express my solely gratitude to the Moderators and Participants. All of you are nice, hard working, though-provoking, intelligent, nice, (my dictionary of word ends here since I am basically a Punjabi/Urdu speaking guy). However, I am sure you all got a BRIEF thank you from me.

The most talked-about was a creature called "River", well, this guy/gal was great in DISCUSSING but frankly unable to PROVE anything right here in front of me or you. Yes, I want GOD to come in front of me, show me HIS mercy, HIS purpose of creating me, SHOW me everything that HE supposedly tries to hide. Hide for what? Quran/Hadith has been around me for about 33 years and frankly, they don't COUNT that much as they used to when I was 7 years old or when at the age of 19, I wanted to go to Jihad in Afghanistan or in Kashmir but the border army sent me back since I was not looking like those JIHADI types.

In Pakistan, or in any muslim-ruled country, the punishment of anyone who becomes infidel or Atheist, is DEATH without any delay and without any trial. People simply pull you out of your home and BUTCHER you as they do to a goat on eve of Eid. So, personally, I am afraid of such persecution or punishment alongwith my 3 year old daughter and a loving wife. I simply would like to run away from such a brutal place, but where to? We all have to die, but dying like that, in the streets, being butchered at the hands of ignorant is the most FRIGHTENING scense that my urine gets its way.

Today, the whole humanity is suffering. There were no golden age of Islam or Christianity or whatever religion. There were always pains as the historians speak of. But as today, I am alive, the pains that I witness, are the PAINS that i care. What is the purpose of you and me here? What is the purpose of this sky, earth, things around you and me, the different attitudes of people around us, the very keyboard that i am typing these words into a lifeless screen, NO PURPOSE.

We all self-defeat us each other, that since, there is a GOD, we have to follow HIM. While saying these words, I am ashamed in myself since believing in God has been my way of life for 33 years and it suddenly STOPS. It looks like a COMMA suddenly creeps up in my normally flowing life. What, Why, Where, Who? I simply am not answered by ANYONE so far. Sorry. For the sake of discussion, or over a cup of tea or Qahwa in a desert, such discussions may seem nice.

Yes, I am being carried away by all those bombs dropped on homes of Iraqis, Afghans, Americans, Israelis, Kashmiris, Chechens, etc. Why do we separate our religion from politics? Why have we created two different words for the same thing? We do all such butchery in the name of either serving our nation or our religion. If you or me have even the TINIEST honor of life as a human being, why don't you commit suicide on seeing such incident? Why do we keep on laughing and dining out in presence of such misery around us? Why? Is there any so-called God, Is there any so-called God's soldiers, Is there any so-called prophets, or any RESCUE TEAM to help us? I may be too much carried away by words as you may think, I may be sounding like a BULLLLSHIITT to you, I may be the most STIIINKKING thinker that you may have ever met, for this I, forget this ME, forget this whole thing about YOURSELF. Try to think on a larger scale. Try to narrate your physical existance, in this physical world with physical happenings around you. Who saw in his/her movie camera that the people inside the planes were MUSLIMS? Which suicide bombers (a Palestinian teenager) even gave it a thought that those Israeli childern, women, old persons are NOT their enemies? I am sorry to say, this is CLEAR bulllshhiit, anarchy, lack of religion, lack of politics, lack of thoughtfulness, lack of wisdom, lack of science, and above all, lack of HUMANITY.

I hope, I made you people feel quite ASHAMED of yourself for existing out there without any purpose. Sorry, but I had to. Love, peace, birthday cake, sweets, pepsi, and VOILA.. enjoy life in this HELL like earth. All you Atheists, muslims, jews, christians, are all nothing more than a crap of shhhh.. sorry, did I say too much about my anger that I could not control into typing these words. I am sure I must be lablelled infidel, or OPPOSITE to whatever you believe, I must stoned to death. What is the need of a person who thinks NOT for him/herself, but for miseries of others in the name of religion, nation, etc. etc.

My mind is right now aching with pain, and my heart pounding greatly. I am feeling as if i was a very tiny ant who tried to harm a very big lion (this world).

Please do one thing, if you can, try to forget ANYTHING i said and go on with your so-called NORMAL life. Thanks but no thanks,

To seek truth is to run the risk of discovering what one would hate to see.

Nobody ever promised the truth would be emotionally pleasing to you.

Do you have any actual reason--which you asked us to stay focused on in your OP--or is raw emotion all you have to offer for our thoughts?

If so, thanks but no thanks.

d

mark9950 · 06-24-2003, 11:46 PM

Christians or any specific RELIGION.

When we are little children we are brainwashed from our parents on many things including religion.

Why does anyone believe in religion?Because we have no choice in the matter until we are at least 16 years old,if we resist religion we are called rebels and have the spirit of rebellion.

There is no 100% undisputed proof of an allah or God of any kind.With all of the skepticism you would think this mythical God would show himself to prove that he exists.

We are infidels because the muslim religion says so,because of their warped view of a opressive world religion.The christian religion in the dark ages also had their views on infidels too.

aatayyab · 06-25-2003, 02:17 AM

Hi,

Yes, I will repeat, you are all nice, good, intelligent, thoughtful people. But let me assure you that you are all none more than that stone-age guy/gal who believes in mythology, stories, etc. Claiming science, education with mere computers, medical science, maths, etc., and giving me your reasons for being or NOT being religious, is simply like a childish joke with me. I am 33 and let me assure you I have started to think and almost stopped watching sci-fi movies or reading such novels. All of you who took so much pain in writing in so much length, did nothing but disappoint me further. Except a few who asked me to wait and see which was the least plausible solution to my immediate dilemma.

Usually, when any of our words are SCRAPPED like that, we take it personally. I assure you I am your best friend or whatever you call. I am just looking for an intellectual discussion, not personal attacks here as I witnessed that many did onto "River" which was sorry. Perhaps I am at fault who came on this forum and asked such a question which made "River" attacked like that. This "River" is not purpose to discuss. I want to go beyond "Oceans".

I may be talking in a FRENCH language to your ENGLISH ears. But, I am sure there will be ONE french-speaking guy/gal out there who would UNDERSTAND and offer any advice or reason accordingly.

It is a war with myself. It is a war with 33 years of my existance and all the things I used to believe. Everything just seems shattered in front of my very own eyes after witnessing such horrible wars on TV. If Muslims are so bad, If their God is so bad, If Christian Americans are so good, If their God is so good, Why not start believing in Christ instead of Allah? Now, you would say, I am being carried away by such temporary wars. WRONG.

I am walking on a street, somebody comes to me, slaps on my face and advises me that this is a temporary pain, it will fade away with time

Am I supposed to just stand still and do nothing? Am I supposed to keep on being hit like that? Shouldn't I start thinking what is wrong with me? The guy who slapped me gave me a reason that I believe in Islam that is why I slapped you. If I cannot defend myself, I should try to reason with myself, I don't deserve slaps. I should rather try to REMOVE the reason for being slapped.

Now, please don't give me those MOTIVATING Quranic Ayat, Ahadees, or whatever. Yes, I am a coward. I am a normal human being trying to live with his family in a peaceful way. It is a FIVE BILLION people strong world, and maybe the only way to bring discipline is incidents like 9/11 or Afghan war or Iraq war or Hiroshima or ........ (My tears get their way....)

Sorry, I just dont' want to remind you the DISAPPOINTING look at the face of Kofi Annan, but it is true, if there is any GOD, he/she would have never let this happen. Now, don't give me bullllshhits about historical murders which you or I never saw. We talk about today, NOW, right NOW, happening in FRONT of our very OWN eyes. Just look at that. See the blood, see the childern, see the women, see the young, see the old, is this what GOD wants? If GOD wants this, let me assure you, whatever powers I got, I will want the same for such a GOD or a worldly power USA which is behaving like a GOD.

diana · 06-25-2003, 06:01 AM

Interesting. It hurts to have your faith rattled like that, no matter what it is that rattles it. I have only a vague appreciation of what you're going through, to be honest. My faith was shattered years ago, but without the war that seems to have sparked your questions. It is hard to even think about turning loose of the comfort blanket that faith offers, though, no matter what provokes it.

River got jumped because he responded to what looked like honest inquiries with scripture. We'd do the same to a Christian who did that, for the same reasons.

You don't sound like a coward to me. You just sound confused, scared, hurt and angry. That's understandable.

I can't imagine a god who would allow things like this to happen, either.

I thought we had a few intellectual points to make. You have not responded to them, but continue to insist you came here for an intellectual discussion.

So discuss. Or, failing that, consider admitting that you're just here to vent your frustration at the world right now.

d

HelenM · 06-25-2003, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
I am however at a loss as to how I can attempt to comfort someone if I am not supposed to even say something about my beliefs.

But if you can't not mention your beliefs, and your beliefs will annoy them, won't that invalidate any comforting effect of your post? So why say anything, in that case?

I'm just asking. It's kind of you to want to comfort someone but perhaps that's simply not possible, in some cases, if you can't do it without mentioning your beliefs.

Helen

HelenM · 06-25-2003, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aatayyab
I am walking on a street, somebody comes to me, slaps on my face and advises me that this is a temporary pain, it will fade away with time Am I supposed to just stand still and do nothing? Am I supposed to keep on being hit like that? Shouldn't I start thinking what is wrong with me? The guy who slapped me gave me a reason that I believe in Islam that is why I slapped you. If I cannot defend myself, I should try to reason with myself, I don't deserve slaps. I should rather try to REMOVE the reason for being slapped.

So...what are you hoping for, from this board? Or has your experience here so far already demonstrated to you that you're not going to get what you are hoping for?

Helen

EstherRose · 06-25-2003, 06:48 AM

Quote:

See the blood, see the childern, see the women, see the young, see the old, is this what GOD wants?

Aatayyab,

A few years ago my sister-in-law was kidnapped and nearly killed by a serial killer. She was shot in the head. I looked at the world differently that day. All I saw were evil people who I could no longer trust. I wondered why such evil was allowed to happen. I spent many years thinking about that day and what it means to me.

These are my beliefs. If Christianity offends you, please do not read this. The forum is general religious discussions so I thought it would be okay.

I do not believe that God wants evil or suffering. Evil is in this world and it will affect us. Sometimes God interfers, sometimes He doesn't. My sister-in-law survived her kidnapping and is alright today. Her attacker is dead and unable to hurt anyone else. Maybe God allowed her to be hurt to stop him from hurting anyone else. Maybe not. I don't know. I cannot believe God wants evil and suffering in this world. I have no choice but to hope for better than that in this world.

There are good things in this world too. I hope you will be able to see them through your pain and sorrow.

HelenM · 06-25-2003, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
These are my beliefs. If Christianity offends you, please do not read this. The forum is general religious discussions so I thought it would be okay.

It's ok according to the rules; however, if your intention is to comfort and it's not comforting, why say it?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that someone genuinely aiming to comfort someone else would be trying to justify what they posted to that someone else. In other words "I have a perfect right to 'comfort you' however I see fit!"

It's not very 'other-centered', is it?

Helen

06-24-2003, 04:39 PM	#111
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Even more fluff Selected Hadiths: [ Dajjal al- Masih/ Dark Messiah] Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people , glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, " I warn you against him ( i.e the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him . No doubt , Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed , and Allah is not one-eyed." [ Volume 4, Book 55, Number 533 Narrated by Ibn Umar] " The Dajjal will emerge in a land in the east called Khurasan [Afghanistan/ Iran]....." [ Sahih, SM: 4072] Dajjal translates to Deceiver in Arabic. Who is the one-eyed man from Khurasan ( Afghanistan) that single-handedly destroyed the good name of Islam. Islam once recognized as the Religion of Peace is now considered universally as the Religion of War. { Islam is derived from the hebrew root shalom=peace, the arabic silm= conditions of peace and aramaic word shalem= completion or perfection} Who is the figure that destroyed 2,000 year old Buddha statues ( which were not being worshipped) and ignored the pleas of UN. Who is this figure that claims to be descended from Prophet Muhammad yet no one has any record of his ancestry or history. Who is the only "man "alive " that wears Prophet Muhammad's Cloak?? Who declared himself the title "Amirul Momineem" a rank that has not been used by any Muslim anywhere in the last 1,000 years? And he declared himself the successor of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) amongst thousands of cheering Afghans. And Today, he declares Jihad on America . http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...n_taliban_dc_5 Have you been Deceived? Y'all do not even know a specks worth of dirt in politics or religion ,believing yourselves to be something extraordinary. This is not a time for the Muslim Ummah to lapse. This is a grave time in Human history. Why do we allow ourselves to be degraded , deceived? The Quran made man/woman the " Inheritors of the Earth and its Defenders". Why are we ignoring our responsibilities as our brother/sisters of all faiths are dying and suffering. Islam is an activist religion. We can not just stand here and watch. Look at your $1 Bill. What do you see? You "see" the words inscribed " In God (Allah) we Trust"...now look closely do you see that pyramid with the "one-eyed" Freemasonic symbol....Look closer..............NOVUS ORDUS SECLORUM.......it writes New World (SECULAR) Order.......cant you see the hypocrisy.....have you been Deceived?

06-24-2003, 11:46 PM	#114
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	We are not born muslims Christians or any specific RELIGION. When we are little children we are brainwashed from our parents on many things including religion. Why does anyone believe in religion?Because we have no choice in the matter until we are at least 16 years old,if we resist religion we are called rebels and have the spirit of rebellion. There is no 100% undisputed proof of an allah or God of any kind.With all of the skepticism you would think this mythical God would show himself to prove that he exists. We are infidels because the muslim religion says so,because of their warped view of a opressive world religion.The christian religion in the dark ages also had their views on infidels too.

06-25-2003, 02:17 AM	#115
aatayyab Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lahore, Pakistan Posts: 36	Thanks, but no Thanks. Hi, Yes, I will repeat, you are all nice, good, intelligent, thoughtful people. But let me assure you that you are all none more than that stone-age guy/gal who believes in mythology, stories, etc. Claiming science, education with mere computers, medical science, maths, etc., and giving me your reasons for being or NOT being religious, is simply like a childish joke with me. I am 33 and let me assure you I have started to think and almost stopped watching sci-fi movies or reading such novels. All of you who took so much pain in writing in so much length, did nothing but disappoint me further. Except a few who asked me to wait and see which was the least plausible solution to my immediate dilemma. Usually, when any of our words are SCRAPPED like that, we take it personally. I assure you I am your best friend or whatever you call. I am just looking for an intellectual discussion, not personal attacks here as I witnessed that many did onto "River" which was sorry. Perhaps I am at fault who came on this forum and asked such a question which made "River" attacked like that. This "River" is not purpose to discuss. I want to go beyond "Oceans". I may be talking in a FRENCH language to your ENGLISH ears. But, I am sure there will be ONE french-speaking guy/gal out there who would UNDERSTAND and offer any advice or reason accordingly. It is a war with myself. It is a war with 33 years of my existance and all the things I used to believe. Everything just seems shattered in front of my very own eyes after witnessing such horrible wars on TV. If Muslims are so bad, If their God is so bad, If Christian Americans are so good, If their God is so good, Why not start believing in Christ instead of Allah? Now, you would say, I am being carried away by such temporary wars. WRONG. I am walking on a street, somebody comes to me, slaps on my face and advises me that this is a temporary pain, it will fade away with time Am I supposed to just stand still and do nothing? Am I supposed to keep on being hit like that? Shouldn't I start thinking what is wrong with me? The guy who slapped me gave me a reason that I believe in Islam that is why I slapped you. If I cannot defend myself, I should try to reason with myself, I don't deserve slaps. I should rather try to REMOVE the reason for being slapped. Now, please don't give me those MOTIVATING Quranic Ayat, Ahadees, or whatever. Yes, I am a coward. I am a normal human being trying to live with his family in a peaceful way. It is a FIVE BILLION people strong world, and maybe the only way to bring discipline is incidents like 9/11 or Afghan war or Iraq war or Hiroshima or ........ (My tears get their way....) Sorry, I just dont' want to remind you the DISAPPOINTING look at the face of Kofi Annan, but it is true, if there is any GOD, he/she would have never let this happen. Now, don't give me bullllshhits about historical murders which you or I never saw. We talk about today, NOW, right NOW, happening in FRONT of our very OWN eyes. Just look at that. See the blood, see the childern, see the women, see the young, see the old, is this what GOD wants? If GOD wants this, let me assure you, whatever powers I got, I will want the same for such a GOD or a worldly power USA which is behaving like a GOD.

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06-25-2003, 06:01 AM	#116
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Interesting. It hurts to have your faith rattled like that, no matter what it is that rattles it. I have only a vague appreciation of what you're going through, to be honest. My faith was shattered years ago, but without the war that seems to have sparked your questions. It is hard to even think about turning loose of the comfort blanket that faith offers, though, no matter what provokes it. River got jumped because he responded to what looked like honest inquiries with scripture. We'd do the same to a Christian who did that, for the same reasons. You don't sound like a coward to me. You just sound confused, scared, hurt and angry. That's understandable. I can't imagine a god who would allow things like this to happen, either. I thought we had a few intellectual points to make. You have not responded to them, but continue to insist you came here for an intellectual discussion. So discuss. Or, failing that, consider admitting that you're just here to vent your frustration at the world right now. d

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