braces_for_impact

"This is the fallenness of this world," Mr. Like said.

I find myself wondering what was meant by that statement. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but it sounds like he's blaming the "sinful nature" of the world for the bus accident. Am I missing something?

Compartmentilazation never ceases to amaze me. God is responsible for all, after all he's god...oh except for the bad stuff. Sure he may be omniscient, and as such should have a better universal plan, but he must be excused, simply because he's god. So maybe it was Satan's work, but of course god created Satan, and apparently can't do anything without god's permission. So maybe evil has to exist for good to exist as well...except in heaven for some reason, where there it is possible. I give up, try as I might, I can't excuse it.

The Pastor of the church mentions looking for a reason it all happened. What reason could there possibly be to kill children? Give me one good legitimate reason. To make everyone else's faith stronger? Is it worth the sacrifice? This is what angers me. I feel truly sorry for these people, because they denigrate themselves as human beings for a concept that is far less than human. A vengeful, angry, jealous god. No dignity in this prayer, no nobility in my opinion. Only mind numbing devotion to a worthless cause. And after is all said and done, people still suggest I should follow this path? I think not. I actually wonder how mentally healthy it is to to search out a supernatural reasoning for a loved one's death. Would you ever truly complete the grieving process?

Arrowman

Hi wildernesse

I'm sure that is the case for many people. And, if that's a way of finding solace, fine. We don't know what was going through each individual's mind ("Yes! We are all individuals!" - M. Python) but then there's also "I'm praying for my son to be alive..." from Larry Like, as reported in the Dallas News article cited.

To the atheist, all prayer is pointless (obviously). But I think there are "degrees of pointlessness" and simply seeking solace and maybe asking your god for guidance and comfort at a time of personal tragedy, is down at one end of the scale away from praying for a specific outcome (see more below). Personally, I reserve differing degrees of scorn for different types of prayer

And then of course there's the serious cognitive dissonance and rationalisation required to pray to a god for the souls of children whom that god has taken in a violent and often painful manner.

Good question. I suppose there would be as many answers to this, as there are people on this board. I'm not up to a good, articulate explanation of my position right now - this is (thankfully) hypothetical for me. I'll just say that my response would be based on "A terrible accident has happened / I feel for those who have lost their children / I fervently hope that my child will be all right / I will need to rely on the support of my friends and family to get me through this time / I know that time will heal / I will deal with this somehow".

I don't know exactly what I would do. The difference between me and a Christian, is that they know what they would do - they would pray. After that, we're in the same boat - we have no idea what happens next. Except maybe, I might stand a better chance of getting through it because I won't be relying on the intervention of a mythical being, but instead taking responsibility for myself.

(Not saying all Christians are like that - lord helps those who helps themselves and all that, but some are.)

As I said above, I recognise that there are different types of prayer, some sillier than others. Certainly I recognise that not all Christians pray for "mail-order presents" but many, many do. Just visit the
<a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=26&DaysPrune=100" target="_blank">Baptist Board prayer request forum</a> some time.

They <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000208;p=" target="_blank">pray for rain(!)</a>
(This thread's a keeper!)

They <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000391&p=" target="_blank">pray for god to fix their Cybersitter software</a> so they don't stray into "certain websites".
They <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000390&p=" target="_blank">thank the Lord for successful surgery</a> with never a thought for the dedicated medical professionals who actually performed the act.
They thank God (not the child support system, which most of them probably think is liberal crap anyway) that a <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000388&p=" target="_blank">molested child</a> was removed from the abusive step-parent, and then pray that God will wipe the child's memory clean. I will refrain from pointing out the obvious in that one....

And I'm not even trying, or being selective. Those were the first three threads on the forum.

They <a href="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000383&p=" target="_blank">keep lists of who to pray for, and ask for updates to see if those prayers have been answered</a>.

And if said blessing does not arrive, they rationalise it with "God's mysterious will".

(Sorry, I don't mean to beat you over the head here - this started as a simple answer to your post, but when I went back to the BB prayer forum - strictly by way of research, you understand - I found so many weird and funny examples I couldn't help myself. Enjoy.)

Another person here (II that is) previously reported a case from the BB or similar, where a person described a personally difficult/tragic situation, and the only "advice and support" they got from the online community was "we'll pray for you" or "pray to God for guidance".

These are the people we mostly scoff at, wildernesse - not you, or HelenSL, or seebs.

Frankly if I were in that position (believing in God in the first place) I'd rather start with "God's mysterious will" and not waste my time praying for intervention in my life. Maybe I could rationalise a belief in a god; but I don't think I could retain my sanity while continually praying for things and then having to explain to myself why they didn't arrive (or why good things seem to happen in no greater proportion to me than to my atheist friend).

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]</p>

lpetrich

I suggest using a megaphone/bullhorn when one prays.

If it gets one's prayers answered, then so much the better. If not, then it is no worse than if one had never used one.

On the subject on the efficacy of prayer, I also note that in the late 19th cy., a certain Sir Francis Galton compared the longevity of the British royal family, who are prayed for by a large number of people, to ordinary people, who do not have as many others praying for them. He found no great difference.

HelenM

A couple of comments...

I can understand people here using events such as the bus crash to discuss whether what Christians do and believe makes sense.

However, it can sound a bit heartless...therefore, I hope that were any of you to find yourself talking to a very recently bereaved Christian parent, you wouldn't see it as an opportunity to debate them on theology, out of respect for their loss.

Just as I hope that a Christian wouldn't be pointing out to a bereaved atheist parent that their child is now being eternally tortured (or so they believe). Even though they might talk about what their theology teaches them about deceased non-Christians on their discussion boards.

I'm not in any way saying "don't discuss it" - I'm simply saying that I trust you wouldn't try to have this discussion in front of, or with, a bereaved Christian parent. Unless they initiated it

love
Helen

Hayden

I know what you mean. My cousin and his fiancee were killed in a car accident, and the joint funeral was in the church they were to be married in, which happened to be the church his father (my uncle) was the minister of. My aunt was quoted in the newspaper as saying "They're dancing with Jesus now", but I didn't debate it with her - what was the point?

I think most of us here are reasonably sensitive (in person, not on the boards); I personally believe that my immortal life will be lived only in the memory of those who knew me, so I try to be as good to them as I can.

HR

Hayden

I think we can assume Stephen Jay Gould's parents don't hang around BaptistBoards.

HelenM

Originally posted by Hayden:

I think we can assume Stephen Jay Gould's parents don't hang around BaptistBoards.

They probably wouldn't care what the Baptists said, even if they did.

I think what upset non-Christians about that thread was it sounded to them like 'gloating'.

Still though, I think we need to separate discussion/debate of the issues and how we'd interact with the bereaved. I don't think it's reasonable of people who have this kind of discussion here, to then call Christians heartless, if they have their version of it, on their boards. That is to confuse debating the issues with what one would say to the bereaved.

You can debate the issues without being insensitive to the people suffering, imo (as long as you don't debate the issues when they are right there!)

My aunt was quoted in the newspaper as saying "They're dancing with Jesus now", but I didn't debate it with her - what was the point?

Exactly

One doesn't say "Oh, come on, face the facts - they're rotting in the ground!!!", does one?

I think most of us here are reasonably sensitive (in person, not on the boards)

Going along with what I just wrote, I wouldn't divide it that way but I'd rather divide it into, debating the issues raised and what one would say to the bereaved. I mean, what if there was a board where the bereaved were posting? I hope you'd be sensitive there too...!

I personally believe that my immortal life will be lived only in the memory of those who knew me, so I try to be as good to them as I can.

Fair enough . I think there's great meaning and value in that and it shows that non-theists can have values quite similar to those Christians profess to have, in certain ways.

love
Helen

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Panta Pei

OTOH

It is overwhelmingly the christian thang to impose their dogma, symbols and rituals on the bereaved instead of the other way around.

So, while we discuss, within the confines of this humble secular bulletin board, the ludicrous nature of prayers and praising 'God' for His utter failure to act to save the children, Helen's protestations ring hollow as an attempt to breed some sort of guilt for our comments and musings.

Yet another way the theists sell their wares to the vulnerable. Be there at birth, marriage and death and insure the potency of the mindsnare.

IMHO, of course

Jamie_L

A few years back, I suffered a great personal tragedy of my own. I was as much an atheist then as now, and contrary to what many theists might expect, my outlook on the world gave me some comfort.

I didn't have to answer the questions: "Why did this happen?" "Why did this happen to me?" I didn't have to rationalize anything. I didn't have to fear I was being punished for something, or that some inscruitable plan was being acted out that required my unwilling sacrifice.

Not being the center of the universe can be comforting in its own way. Nothing supernatural is out to get you, or watching your every move and demanding certain behaviors. You are free to grieve and then reconstruct your life as you see fit.

Jamie

HelenM

Hi Panta Pei

Actually I was giving you an opportunity to show that you would be appropriately sensitive if face to face with a bereaved person.

But if you prefer not to take it in favor of comments against Christianity/Christians that's up to you, of course

love
Helen

[edited for typos]

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>