ps418 wrote: What about the person whose desire for money and material objects motivates their every waking moment, to the exclusion of other pursuits? The person who is dragged through life by their own unexamined desires is hardly more alive than the person who has learned to experience contentment in the absence of such objects of desire. [emphasis mine]

I'd count this materialistic person as more alive than someone without desire, but I'd count the person who lives the examined life and pursues desires for both material well-being and personal growth as the most alive person of all.

Oh, come on, I didn't intend even for a moment to go to the other extreme of hedonism. Anyone who eats too much chocolate will throw up from that. I mean just this, that our desires, carnal and otherwise, are not to be shunned, so long as their fulfilment does not cause harm to oneself or others. I can't stand it when religious people talk about "the spiritual harm of giving in to one's desires". For goodness sake, our spirituality stands upon our desires! A human without desires does nothing, no creative stuff, no independent fruits of the mind.

In my country there are lots of Torah scholars, bachurei yeshiva, students of Orthodox Judaism. Their religious duty is to study the Torah and Talmud and observe the "divine" commands (the mitzvot) all their lives. Any talk which is not of the Torah, or any deed which is not for the glory of HaShem (=The Lord) is considered a waste of time, a moment of spiritual death. They are not allowed to read interesting things, and they're not allowed to make works of art or anything unless it's for the pretext of making money for a Torah life. I recoil in horror at those mad theists. To me, they're spiritually dead. They are stuck day and night in their yeshivas, and they don't get to see Nature. I once asked one of those, "but isn't Nature the work of God, according to your beliefs?", to which he answered, "yes, but you know God better by studying the Torah". Yeah right, by studying a 2000-year-old tome. Ugh!

I'm biased. Two years in that horrible world made me incorrigibly biased, and I'm afraid of anything which I might perceive as hermitry, as monasticism from the reality. It is for this reason that I revere nature so much, and naturalism is not only my philosophy, it's my religion.

Mad

Because of my prejudices..just like the one i have against people who go with the flow without questioning. (I know, judging is bad...but cant help it...i can afford to be a human, after all aint i one )


Dev

Oh, come on, I didn't intend even for a moment to go to the other extreme of hedonism. Anyone who eats too much chocolate will throw up from that. I mean just this, that our desires, carnal and otherwise, are not to be shunned, so long as their fulfilment does not cause harm to oneself or others. I can't stand it when religious people talk about "the spiritual harm of giving in to one's desires". For goodness sake, our spirituality stands upon our desires! A human without desires does nothing, no creative stuff, no independent fruits of the mind.

Ok, how do you view a scientist who spends most of his time in the lab and on his experiemnts/theories without giving a flying **** about material things/desires? He/she is not forced to live this lifestyle...so does it make it different, just coz they are doing what they wanted to do instead of it being forced upon? That is the difference between abrahamic doctrine and the eastern enlightment, they dont tell you, they advise you.

I'm biased. Two years in that horrible world made me incorrigibly biased, and I'm afraid of anything which I might perceive as hermitry, as monasticism from the reality. It is for this reason that I revere nature so much, and naturalism is not only my philosophy, it's my religion

Cool, its your life and choices. Only thing is just because it is one of the better options to "belong", it need not be the "one".




[This message has been edited by phaedrus (edited May 09, 2001).]

Well, I must challenge you slightly on this. There have been times when Buddhism has been used in a political fashion to oppress others. In Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate people were required to register with a local Buddhist temple to prove they were not Christians. Christianity was outlawed and one could be punished (even executed) for being one. (I am a materialistic atheist so please do not think I am trying to defend Christianity). There are also accounts of Buddhist monastaries raising their own armies of bandits and killers who would terroize Japanese peasants.
I say all this to point out that no religion is immune from being used in a negative way. Of course we are all familiar with the crimes of Christianity; however, we should not let that blind us to the abuses of other religions. Abrahamic religions are not the only ones guilty of human rights abuses.

regards,

red dawn

But phaedrus, the scientists does spend most of his time in the lab out of his desire. It's his desire to do science. What I'm against is the total quenching of selfish desires which theistic religions demand. As a Muslim told me: "kull ala'maal lillaah walaisa hunaak shai aakhar" - all deeds are for Allah and there is no other thing. That's totalitarian slavery.

BTW, don't Buddhists desire to reach Nirvana? But to attain Nirvana you have to relinquish all desires, including the desire to attain Nirvana! How then does one attain Nirvana, eh? I've heard that the greatest conflict in Buddhism.



That's right. And Buddha didn't say you'd burn in hell for eternity for rejecting him, even though he's the Saviour of mankind - you just have to go a few more steps in the samsara (cycle of incarnations) until you reach an incarnation where you can attain nirvana. Buddhism is good, the fruit of a good founder. The theistic religions are evil.

[This message has been edited by devnet (edited May 11, 2001).]

I stand corrected. Thanks. Likewise communism was supposed to be a good, improving solution for mankind's problems, but human greed and unrestricted selfishness perverted it into a lever for totalitarian despotism. Humans cause so many problems in this world. Here of course will come our Christian apologist, saying "you see? You admit of the sinful nature of man, caused by the Fall of Adam!". Rejected. Man's nature isn't sinful, just problematic, and you can't say all humans are sinners (indeed the greater sinner is one who spreads the Xtian gospel instead of helping people). Christianity is appalling in its unrestricted selfishness. Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour may make the sinner forgiven in the eyes of God, but it doesn't make him less of a sinner on this world.

The difference between Buddhism and, eg, Islam: wrong deeds carried out by Buddhists are perversions of Buddhism, whereas wrong deeds (Jihad, killing in Allah's name) carried out by Muslims (or Jews or Xtians; no favoritism here) can be traced directly to their scriptural source (Qur'an or Bible) and are therefore the responsibilty of the religion as well as the religious. I'll put it this way: the suicide-bombers? They wouldn't be doing it if it weren't for their religion! Promise of the X-Rated Paradise is in the Qur'an, and that justifies everything.

Theistic religions are not moral, and moral religion is not theistic.

[This message has been edited by devnet (edited May 11, 2001).]

I'd like to say that some forms of Buddhism are commendably short on the trappings of what often gets called "religion"; the Buddha himself often seems like a theological agnostic. However, some other forms are full of that sort of thing, having lots of gods and heavens and hells and superstitions. Consider "Pure Land" Buddhism, which features "Salvation by Faith in the Wisdom and Compassion in the Amida Buddha", meaning that one will be reborn in the Western Paradise when one dies. Even so, Buddhism has generally had a good record and not been big on persecution.

And I've seen some unflattering things about Tibetan Buddhism, how Tibet had long had a rule of theocratic feudalism.

Looking closer to home, at least home from a cultural standpoint, the old-time religions of Europe and the Middle East have also had good records of tolerance. Although many cities and nations would have official cults of various deities, these did not exclude the worship of others, and it was not really necessary to "believe" if one went through the motions of worship. A lot of philosophers managed to get away with treating the official gods as lesser beings, if not unnecessary hypotheses. Consider Xenophanes, with his famous observation that people tend to create gods in their likeness. They also were known to express the view that superstitions forms of religion are needed to make the bulk of the populace virtuous; this might be called the cosmic-bogeyman theory of religion.

Dev

But phaedrus, the scientists does spend most of his time in the lab out of his desire. It's his desire to do science. What I'm against is the total quenching of selfish desires which theistic religions demand

Umm..now you are trying to distinguish between various desires? Some are essential and some are not? What if for the scientist its not a desire, but just living his life? For him life means science and vice versa. I hope you have met some individuals who do certain things not thinking about the outcome but just enjoying the work?

BTW, don't Buddhists desire to reach Nirvana? But to attain Nirvana you have to relinquish all desires, including the desire to attain Nirvana! How then does one attain Nirvana, eh? I've heard that the greatest conflict in Buddhism.

Nice one First thing, is buddhism the only thought system which people are aware of in the west? It is becoming more and more cliched to keep associating anything eastern with buddhism or that dalai lama.

Coming to your views. Standard criticism....If desire, wanting and craving causes rebirth then how could one ever attain Nirvana because in wanting to attain it one would be strengthening the very thing that prevents it from being attained? . The standard answer is - Nirvana is not an object that one acquires by wanting and then pursuing, rather it is the state of being utterly without wanting. To put it simply, it is a state you acquire by realisation not by pursuit.

That's right. And Buddha didn't say you'd burn in hell for eternity for rejecting him, even though he's the Saviour of mankind - you just have to go a few more steps in the samsara (cycle of incarnations) until you reach an incarnation where you can attain nirvana. Buddhism is good, the fruit of a good founder. The theistic religions are evil

He he, all organised religions/thought systems suck. Just take what you think is the best and relevant parts are according to you and strike your own path.

quote:
'BTW, don't Buddhists desire to reach Nirvana? But to attain Nirvana you have to relinquish all desires, including the desire to attain Nirvana! How then does one attain Nirvana, eh? I've heard that the greatest conflict in Buddhism.'

It is so frustrating that this is the most common misconception about Buddhism. This is not surprising since there are so many schools of Buddhism. So I think it is time to straigten things out.

Buddhism primary concern is how to free people from suffering. It is NOT the existence of desires that causes suffering. It is the impure desires because of mankind's delusions and ignorance about the true nature of life. Thus, it is the purification of one's desires that enable us to live happy lives.

Enlightenment is not to cease to exist. Enlightenment is not the absence of problems/suffering. Rather it is being elevate the state of life such that one is full of courage, compassion and wisdom to overcome any problems/suffering. Buddhism talks about walking the Middle Way. There should be no extremes in Buddhism. It is about having to have the right balance...to live in rhythm with the Law of Life. The highest teaching of the Buddha is the Lotus Sutra. The lotus plant represents the simultaneity of cause and effect. The lotus plant is a plant that blooms more beautiful in a muddy pond that in clear water. It is not the absence of suffering that is good for us. Rather, by challenging our problems, we grow stronger, more matured and become more beautiful people.

Enlightenment is NOT a goal far away from us. It is possible, now, here, as we are...

'The Way is not difficult, only there must be no wanting or not wanting.'
'Desire nothing but desirelessness, hope for nothing but to rise above all hopes, want nothing and you will have everything.'
Meher baba