Freethought & Rationalism Archive

99Percent · 01-06-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monkeybot
We're in total agreement here 99 - but I would like to point out that sometimes women are not able to abort until late in the game for financial reasons. (Abortions cost money -- and sometimes it may take a month or two to raise it.)

This is where trimester arguments get into a grey area, IMO.

Fortunately its becoming easier and easier to detect pregnancy very early and privately and to perform early abortions, from the morning after pill, to RU486. Its now mostly a matter of having these options freely available and that women are aware of them and free to use them.

99Percent · 01-06-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by L. Noctivagans
99Percent:

Wouldn't it be nice if almost all women made their decision within a reasonable amount of time, "a reasonable amount of time" being "before getting pregnant in the first place"?

Non sequitur. Its a moral question after the fact that the woman is pregnant and because abortion is in fact an option.

Quote:

I suppose as a man, you don't have a say on Female Genital Mutilation. If some mother wants to do it to her daughter, hey, it must be all right with you, since you're not a woman and you don't get a say.

No because forced mutilation is a human atrocity, regardless of the sex.

Quote:

And while we're at it, women don't get a say when it comes to the Catholic priest scandals. Since only males were victims, women don't get a say.

No because catholic priests can and have abused minors that are both boys or girls. Sex is not an issue here, but the abuse of the position of respect and authority over nonconsenting minors.

Quote:

"I'm a man, therefore I won't take a position" is a cop out. Either a kid is being deprived of his/her right to existence, or an abnormal cell growth is being removed. If it's the former, EVERYONE has a say because it's pretty akin to murder. If it's the latter, EVERYONE has a say because you need to protect your loved ones from these life-threatening parasites and the people who insist they not be removed.

No, because the option and therefore the decision belongs entirely to the woman who is carrying the product because its sovereign to her body. It would be another matter if I had the ability to somehow induce abortions as a man giving me the option and therefore the moral decision to do so.

This is clearly not the case. The most a man who is responsible for the pregnancy can do is to persuade what he wants: "I rather not be a father right now, and if you decide to keep it I will abandon you, etc" or "Yes, lets have the baby and I will support you. etc". In the end its the woman who decides what to do, unless you suggest that the man has the right to actually abduct the woman and force her to abort or carry to term.

dshimel · 01-06-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by L. Noctivagans

dshimel:
I also don't like the "could develop" into a child argument against abortion as it can be used to justify the immorality of birth control or even abstainance. Had the woman not used birth control, the egg could have been fertalized and developed into a child....

Sullster:
It could be, unless you use the 'unique genetic material' argument. At which point it stops being the woman's body and becomes the eventual kid's body when it has its own, unique set of genetic information. Neither of the sex cells, alone, is going to spontaneously erupt into a child. Both of them put together and implanted in the uterus wall generally will do so.

There are two arguments against your 'unique genetic material' argument.

One:
Identicle twins have the same genetic material. If we wait until they are born, and I kill one of them, could I argue that I have not killed anyone because the person did not have 'unique genetic material' and was therefore only a part of the other twin which is still alive?

How about if I made a clone of a person. I'd have a fully functional, thinking, feeling, emotion person. Oh wait. It isn't a person, as it doesn't have 'unique genetic material'. It is just a part of the DNA donor, and can be treated as if it were a limb. But it up, kill it.

Two:
The key to your statement is the implantation in the uterus. From what I've heard, a full 90+% of fertalized eggs are unable to implant. Is birth control that prevents implantation then abortion?

Does it only become a person when the implantation occurs? We define "person" by changes in the mom's body? How then do we define death?

Why not be consistant? A person is human body with a brain that is capable of conscious thought. Leave it to the medical experts to figure out when that starts and stops.

vtran31 · 01-06-2003, 08:21 PM

I am of the opinion that a woman is justified in having an abortion at any time during a pregnancy. I do not care what her reasons are - as long as it is inside of her, I am fine with her having it removed.

you were once just inside your mother's womb. Are you telling me now you would not have mind if your mother removed you?

Of course, I do not consider infanticide to be on par with murder either.

so you would not really care if I just killed, or termintated, your newborn baby?

vtran31 · 01-06-2003, 08:22 PM

I chose #2 but only if both lives would be lost. but with medical technology, I think that situatio would be nonexistant

vtran31 · 01-06-2003, 08:24 PM

"Why not be consistant? A person is human body with a brain that is capable of conscious thought. Leave it to the medical experts to figure out when that starts and stops."

no. if its murder, we desreve to know when life begins. so your of the opinion that life begins at a arbitrary time after conception? tell me at what exact time

Jamie_L · 01-07-2003, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vtran31
no. if its murder, we desreve to know when life begins. so your of the opinion that life begins at a arbitrary time after conception? tell me at what exact time.

Trasition to becoming a person doesn't begin at some arbitrary time. It begins at a specific time - or more acurately a specific point in development. I would say that developmental stage has to do with the development of a functional central nervous system. My medical knowledge isn't sufficient for me to say when that is chronologically, but I actually think it's surprisingly early.

The destruction of a handful of embryonic cells, to me, has little more moral significance than women allowing their unfertilized eggs to die at the end of every month.

Jamie

tronvillain · 01-07-2003, 07:24 AM

vtran31, learn to use the quote command. Now, you asked:

Quote:

you were once just inside your mother's womb. Are you telling me now you would not have mind if your mother removed you?

"I" was never inside my mother's womb. When the fetus that would eventually become me was in my mother's womb, "I" did not exist to mind anything. Now that I exist I am of course glad that my mother did not have an abortion, but I am similarly glad that my mother and father did not wait a few days to fuck, since either way I would not now exist.

Quote:

so you would not really care if I just killed, or termintated, your newborn baby?

I said that I do not consider infanticide to be on par with murder, not that I am not opposed to it.

vtran31 · 01-07-2003, 08:25 PM

"I" was never inside my mother's womb. When the fetus that would eventually become me was in my mother's womb, "I" did not exist to mind anything. Now that I exist I am of course glad that my mother did not have an abortion, but I am similarly glad that my mother and father did not wait a few days to fuck, since either way I would not now exist.

so tell me, when did you become you?

vtran31 · 01-07-2003, 08:28 PM

I said that I do not consider infanticide to be on par with murder, not that I am not opposed to it

so how is it any different?

View Poll Results: When can Abortion be Justified?
Never! It is murder no matter what the circumstances are!!!	0	0%
Abortion should be done only in the most extreme cases - not as a method of birth control	8	10.67%
If the parents cannot afford to keep the baby	0	0%
If adoption is not possible or if it will kill the mother, the baby, or both.	5	6.67%
The woman has the choice, but other people should also have a say in the decision.	11	14.67%
It's the woman's choice - under any circumstances she can abort	51	68.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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01-06-2003, 08:21 PM	#24
vtran31 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 40	I am of the opinion that a woman is justified in having an abortion at any time during a pregnancy. I do not care what her reasons are - as long as it is inside of her, I am fine with her having it removed. you were once just inside your mother's womb. Are you telling me now you would not have mind if your mother removed you? Of course, I do not consider infanticide to be on par with murder either. so you would not really care if I just killed, or termintated, your newborn baby?

01-06-2003, 08:22 PM	#25
vtran31 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 40	I chose #2 but only if both lives would be lost. but with medical technology, I think that situatio would be nonexistant

01-06-2003, 08:24 PM	#26
vtran31 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 40	"Why not be consistant? A person is human body with a brain that is capable of conscious thought. Leave it to the medical experts to figure out when that starts and stops." no. if its murder, we desreve to know when life begins. so your of the opinion that life begins at a arbitrary time after conception? tell me at what exact time

01-07-2003, 08:25 PM	#29
vtran31 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 40	"I" was never inside my mother's womb. When the fetus that would eventually become me was in my mother's womb, "I" did not exist to mind anything. Now that I exist I am of course glad that my mother did not have an abortion, but I am similarly glad that my mother and father did not wait a few days to fuck, since either way I would not now exist. so tell me, when did you become you?

01-07-2003, 08:28 PM	#30
vtran31 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 40	I said that I do not consider infanticide to be on par with murder, not that I am not opposed to it so how is it any different?

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