Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chiron64 · 10-19-2002, 10:12 PM

I once started writing an imaginary dialogue with god asking that very question. I never finished it and I don't know what I did with it. But I do remember that "god" told me that any "evidence" that He might present to me, I would inevitably try to explain it in light of science. And if I couldn't explain it that way, I'd just withhold judgment and say, "I don't know yet".

If god came down and asked me the question directly, I'd ask him to make me god so I can straighten out the mess he's made of His universe

!

sakrilege · 10-20-2002, 04:40 AM

Being an ex-believer (the I had a Relationship with god type), I would expect to see true justice (reward for the underdogs as well as punishment for the despots) and prayers answered (dying from cancer early type not let me win the game type). The phrase 'god works in mysterious ways' is totally bogus to me. As others have said, god would know how to have us understand god's ways, they don't need to be mysterious.

I don't know what to do about natural selection, it seems so cruel for a deity to create a system where the young suffer the highest mortality. Carrion eaters are one thing but predation (including germs, parasites, etal) is not the result of a 'loving' entity. In addition, the catastrphic nature of the earth (volcanes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etal) which create suffering independent of human action. I'm unable to believe in a 'loving' god given the the facts of nature.

I want to believe in a loving god, I deconverted relunctantly and over many years because of this. But that god is not there and the whole nature of the universe would have to change in order for me to believe.

Susan

agapeo · 10-20-2002, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sighhswolf:
<strong>I've never seen a "miracle".
I've never seen anything that I would consider to be "supernatural".
I have seen death up close and personal and have waited and watched for some kind of indication that a lifeforce continued after the body died, but have observed nothing but the last gasp of breath, the glazing of the eyes and the gradual decrease in the body temperature.
I have spent hours in prayer.
I have taken much time to meditate and ponder the
scriptures.
I searched the holy books and manuscripts for some kind of truth but have found none.

When I cried out for help, there was none.
When I asked for understanding, it was not forthcoming.
When I begged for the "spirit" to enlighten me, I remained in darkness.

When I thought that hard work and dedication to the principles of christianity and an effort to live as Jesus did would protect me and those I love and care for from harm and provide comfort in times of severe trouble and stress, I was proven time and time again to be wrong.
There was no protection from the undesirable effects of "evil" in the cold light of reality.
Now I am convinced there is no evil....there is no good...there are only desirable and undesirable actions and reactions.

When I asked why good people suffer and die while
people who care about nothing but their own survival and ambitions prosper, I was admonished
not to question the ways of god, he knows what is best for us all.
And when I asked the representatives of god on earth why my prayers were never answered, I was told that I would never be able to understand the ways of this god.
That I had not given enough effort to deserve the Almighty's assistance.
That my spirit lacked humility and I had not fully given myself over to the will of this god.

And you ask, "What would it take for me to believe?"
When needless horrors destruction and death cease to control the world and the reality we inhabit.
When humans look at each other and see other humans, instead of enemies and ethnicity and gender.
When there is an end to the undeserved gains of
those who exist outside of the acceptable conduct of society and it's laws.
When punishment gives way to real tangible rehabilitation.
And when the poor and starving humans on this earth are fed and clothed and the old people are treated with the respect and kindness they deserve.
When this supposed supernatural, benevolent father figure, creator of the universe, says to all of humanity together with no mistake of who and what he is:
"I love you no matter who you are, what you are, what you have done, or what you have not done, because you are my children. I give you true unconditional love and acceptance."

That is when I will believe......not before.

Wolf

</strong>

Very interesting comments Wolf! If I may (only at this time) ask one question to see if there is any correlation between what God may do and what you do as a father. To re-quote:

Quote:

"I love you no matter who you are, what you are, what you have done, or what you have not done, because you are my children. I give you true unconditional love and acceptance."

I would imagine that this would be an admirable objective of any parent. To love and accept their children unconditionally and yet practically speaking even if we do obtain this attitude it comes with a responsibility to discipline our children to "mold and shape" their character and prepare them for the time when they leave the "nest". So, my question is: When we discipline our children is it more a matter of what we do for them than what we do to them? Follow-up thought: If we fail to do what we see as best for them (even though the means of doing so seem unfair to them) can it be considered love?

tronvillain · 10-21-2002, 10:47 AM

What would it take for me to believe? It depends on what you mean by "believe." I can think of many things that would result in my estimate of the probability of something accurately labelled "God" substantially upwards. Miracles or divine appearances not consistent with hallucinations would be a good start.

Keith Russell · 10-21-2002, 11:30 AM

Greetings:

The concept of 'God' contradicts reality.

God is not real; and that which is real is not 'God'.

Keith.

Jack · 10-22-2002, 06:33 AM

Simple. A materialization in front of me, a "hello", a handshake, followed by a cure of my Multiple Myeloma.

Seems like not too much for an omnipotent deity.

Jack

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10-19-2002, 10:12 PM	#31
chiron64 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: San Antonio Posts: 85	I once started writing an imaginary dialogue with god asking that very question. I never finished it and I don't know what I did with it. But I do remember that "god" told me that any "evidence" that He might present to me, I would inevitably try to explain it in light of science. And if I couldn't explain it that way, I'd just withhold judgment and say, "I don't know yet". If god came down and asked me the question directly, I'd ask him to make me god so I can straighten out the mess he's made of His universe !

10-20-2002, 04:40 AM	#32
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Being an ex-believer (the I had a Relationship with god type), I would expect to see true justice (reward for the underdogs as well as punishment for the despots) and prayers answered (dying from cancer early type not let me win the game type). The phrase 'god works in mysterious ways' is totally bogus to me. As others have said, god would know how to have us understand god's ways, they don't need to be mysterious. I don't know what to do about natural selection, it seems so cruel for a deity to create a system where the young suffer the highest mortality. Carrion eaters are one thing but predation (including germs, parasites, etal) is not the result of a 'loving' entity. In addition, the catastrphic nature of the earth (volcanes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etal) which create suffering independent of human action. I'm unable to believe in a 'loving' god given the the facts of nature. I want to believe in a loving god, I deconverted relunctantly and over many years because of this. But that god is not there and the whole nature of the universe would have to change in order for me to believe. Susan

10-21-2002, 10:47 AM	#34
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	What would it take for me to believe? It depends on what you mean by "believe." I can think of many things that would result in my estimate of the probability of something accurately labelled "God" substantially upwards. Miracles or divine appearances not consistent with hallucinations would be a good start.

10-21-2002, 11:30 AM	#35
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: The concept of 'God' contradicts reality. God is not real; and that which is real is not 'God'. Keith.

10-22-2002, 06:33 AM	#36
Jack Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Posts: 126	Simple. A materialization in front of me, a "hello", a handshake, followed by a cure of my Multiple Myeloma. Seems like not too much for an omnipotent deity. Jack

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