Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vagrant · 05-19-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake
Here's one that just came to me after lunch:

Xians were once a persecuted minority themselves. Now look at where they are today. They fear the rise of a minority group that could eventually topple them from their dominant position.

Just something to think about.

I have yet to figure out how or why this huge majority insists on thinking of itself as some sort of persecuted minority. I think it is probably due to 2 common human behaviors:

1) wanting to be more "in the know" than everyone else
2) the all too common "victim" mentality.

faust · 05-19-2003, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Unbelievers are the group least likely to own a gun in America.

We are? I wasn't aware of that, can someone point to some statistics on it for me? I know the fundies love guns, and imho defending the 2nd amendment is their only useful purpose. Leaves me time to defend the 1st.

Personally I'm armed to the teeth. I carry concealed, and i'm carrying right now. I've helped many female friends learn to shoot safely, most of whom are lesbians (i have a skewed ratio of friends). They tend to enjoy it. They are concerned about the serial killer on the loose around here, and they tend not to be religious at all.

Edited to add:
I don't believe in god. So i'm going to make damned sure i stick around on earth as long as possible.

Zora · 05-19-2003, 03:42 PM

Interesting, faust. I was wondering where that statistic came from, too. My atheist family has always owned a firearm or two. My father, when young, was a hunter then later gave it up as seeming unfair to the poor animals. However, he did feel that it was his duty to protect his family and livestock in a rural area. My husband owns guns for the same reason. We are so remote, somebody could cut a hole in the wall with a chainsaw and chop us up, too, and nobody would hear a thing. Our cows have been cornered by dogs, and so have my cats. I was threatened by a couple (dogs, not fundies) with the pack mentality just the other day. We shot over them, not at them, to scare them away but would have had to shoot them if that hadn't worked. (There is no animal control officer here.)

Missouri defeated a "right to carry" law a couple years ago. A mixed blessing, I guess. I am not sure there is much worse than a fundy with a gun...unless its an atheist without one. Just kidding!

Pyrrho · 05-19-2003, 11:12 PM

There are a couple of things to say. First, it helps create group cohesion to have an enemy. The "us" vs. "them" mentality works great for keeping people in line. So you are not going to be successful in getting rid of hatred and prejudice, particularly when the belief system is based upon belief without sufficient evidence (i.e., bigotry or prejudice). This leads us directly to the second point, which is that Christians are afraid of imaginary things, like God and Satan. With being afraid of atheists, at least they are afraid of things that really exist, so it is really far more rational than many of their beliefs.

Oh, and I think you are being overly optimistic about what we have gotten over in the U.S.

wildernesse · 05-20-2003, 07:45 AM

This thread has been quite entertaining for me, as a Christian.
I think that Pyrrho's last post was quite accurate--and explained Conchobar's post quite well. Humans like to have an us vs. them, it makes them feel secure and defines the way they act towards others by generalizing about the "other" and then not having to think if their generalization is correct.

Lately I've become tired of stating that I don't hate atheists, nor am I threatened or afraid of them. Now I'm over that--you may dream up all sorts of things and assign them to me, as that is much easier. It *is* amusing how often I hear on this board that the diversity of Christian thought is a large factor against its truth--and yet, in spite of that diversity, American Christians seem to act in such a monolithic way according to the OP. Hmm.

--tibac

Maverick · 05-20-2003, 08:44 AM

After reading Wildernesse's post I think this thread will be better served by getting perspective from the other side of the aisle.

I am moving this to GRD so that theists can respond also, since they are the subject of the question.

Maverick - SL&S Moderator

05-20-2003, 08:51 AM

I am also a non-theist. I do believe that there are forces which we do not comprehend which glue together the universe and it many little parts. Not a theistic force, but a scientific force. I know that solid things like my desk, are more space than matter - that is to say, there is more space between the atoms and their sub-particles than there are particles. To me it's like having four posts in the ground that somehow make a fence. But I don't think it's hocus-pocus or the gods of the sun and moon who do it either.

I am and always will be a cynic - almost everything my parents taught me, which fundies say parents should teach their children, is untrue. But they taught me to be a cynic, too.

I am a gun owner, because I do not plan to ever wait for god or the police to protect me. I am a big fag in the heart of red-neck heaven, and since so many of them have pledged to off me, I have pledged to take them with me, if it comes to that. I will never, however, initiate a conflict or violent exchange. In fact, the legal liability alone has motivated me to act very peacefully towards others. Let the hostile intent be theirs and theirs alone.

That said, I think that the reason that reason and non-belief is so threatening to believers is that their little web of dogma and archaic philosophy is so fragile. It is the same with heterosexual men who feel threatened by homosexual men. Gay panic has even been used as justification for murder in recent times as you may recall. Homosexuals threaten the fragile ideas of heterosexual men who claim never to have thoughts about other men or even check out the size of their wee-wee at the urinal. Likewise, not having a belief in gods is threatening to people who know that most of their hocus-pocus religion is just that. They want hope and they want comfort, so they cling to archaic explanations of the universe and ritual conducted by men in long wool dresses.

We all lack confidence, and worry about our self-image. We think that we are somehow inadequate. Children especially, doubt themselves and so accept the religious crutches that are offered. "I am OK in god's eyes," etc. We non-believers threaten them by telling them that the ideas they have accepted as "gospel," are unnecessary and absurd.

The "world order" is a huge band of performers spinning plates on long sticks. Each time we ask them why, it distracts them from the plate spinning. They worry about dropping their Jesus plate, or their "wine to blood" plate or their "priests are good, sexless people" plate, or their "nuclear family" plate, or their "god blesses America" plate. But personally I experience a childish glee when one of the plates falls to the floor and smashes.

Rational BAC · 05-20-2003, 09:01 AM

Well I don't see it myself.

Are atheists getting seriously paranoid or what?

Come on now-----you must realize that fundamentalist Christians are a MINORITY in this country. I know that they are a very loud and obnoxious minority and very hard headed minority --------but still a minority.

I agree about the am radio talk show stuff. Talk radio is overwhelmingly conservative in ALL ways. --- (What happened to the supposed liberal media bias in this country??)--- I listen to it for the laughs. -------------Actually, overall, even allowing for conservative am radio, we have a pretty balanced media system in this country. There is plenty of media access for all types of viewpoints.

Trust me------the OVERWHELMING majority of mainstream Christians are not going to let that dinky minority of ding bats ruin your lives.

You are making a big to do about nothing.

Llyricist · 05-20-2003, 09:07 AM

Well actually most of the theists that post on THIS board are rather by definition the exception that proves the rule don't you think?

That is, if they were afraid they wouldn't even be here to post how they ain't scared. However it could also be some subconscious fear that motivates some here. But that just goes to show the variety of inividuals in the world.

Muffinstuffer · 05-20-2003, 09:07 AM

Well, since someone mentioned that they'd like to hear from 'the other side' and since I'm a Christian - and one of those 'fundies' that people on this website seem to 'hate' - heh heh - I thought I'd throw my .02 in.

Quote:

Originally posted by Conchobar
Why are Atheists so HATED? Why are Atheists a threat? Why is it OK to proselytise Jesus, his divinity, his second return, defend the Bible, "God bless" everything, and "Jesus loves you?"

I don't hate atheists. And I would like to apologize for those who DO, because despite the fact that I may have differences with you concerning beliefs and the like, that is no reason for hate.

As far as why it's Ok to proselytize Jesus.......and "Jesus loves you"....well, to make a long story short, that's the Great Commission. In other words, we're 'supposed to.' At least when I've talked to people who do not agree with my beliefs, I am respected for actually following them to the best of my ability.

Quote:

But if one Atheist states his/her reason for non-belief, it is regarded as wrong and �an attack on Christianity�. If Atheists debate our analysis of the Bible, it is regarded as an attack. Some Christians actually think that in spite of iron-clad control of the National and State governments, most organisations, and a huge popular majority; that a 10% largely academic, largely unarmed minority who are among the least likely to commit crime, are persecuting this powerful Christian Majority.

I don't think stating one's opinion on Christianity is wrong in the least. Even JESUS said, in Revelation, "I would rather that you were hot OR COLD." In other words, He's got more respect for those who either ARE Christian and do their best to follow Him, OR for those who flat out do NOT, then He does for those who sit on the sidelines. Stating an opinion is not an attack.

Quote:

Is it that the very existence of Atheists is perceived as an affront to their need for uniformity of belief? I post this only to let you see my side of your culture, governmental policies, and drift toward Christian Theocracy. Hitler used the same method in Germany. He claimed that a small Jewish minority were a major threat to the racial purity and Christianity of the huge German Aryan majority.

As far as the affront to our need for uniformity of belief goes, I don't see it as such. It's obvious that not all will decide to be Christian, and I can handle that.

I would also like to point out that just because he claimed to be identified with Christianity, does not mean he WAS. Last time I checked, claiming Christ as one's savior was what made one a Christian. If Hitler did that, then like it or not, yes, he was a Christian (albeit one who needed A LOT of help). If he didn't, then he wasn't a Christian. Whether or not he was, is not up to me to determine because I wasn't there to hear his personal confession of faith. That's up to God.

Quote:

My wish is that you could put aside prejudice. Your nation has gotten by anti-Catholicism, Anti-Semitism, partly past racism, partly past anti-gay bigotry, but Atheists remain the only widely hated minority. 49% of Americans hate Atheists or have very negative views of them. That means more than half of American Christians hate or dislike unbelievers.

However, I sure find it funny that there are a lot of commercials and TV shows nowadays that seem to have a tongue-in-cheek view of Christianity, and none that I can remember that launch into tirades on atheists and atheism. I don't dislike unbelievers. I dislike UNBELIEF.

05-20-2003, 08:51 AM	#17
twisted brother Guest Posts: n/a	guns, god and gays I am also a non-theist. I do believe that there are forces which we do not comprehend which glue together the universe and it many little parts. Not a theistic force, but a scientific force. I know that solid things like my desk, are more space than matter - that is to say, there is more space between the atoms and their sub-particles than there are particles. To me it's like having four posts in the ground that somehow make a fence. But I don't think it's hocus-pocus or the gods of the sun and moon who do it either. I am and always will be a cynic - almost everything my parents taught me, which fundies say parents should teach their children, is untrue. But they taught me to be a cynic, too. I am a gun owner, because I do not plan to ever wait for god or the police to protect me. I am a big fag in the heart of red-neck heaven, and since so many of them have pledged to off me, I have pledged to take them with me, if it comes to that. I will never, however, initiate a conflict or violent exchange. In fact, the legal liability alone has motivated me to act very peacefully towards others. Let the hostile intent be theirs and theirs alone. That said, I think that the reason that reason and non-belief is so threatening to believers is that their little web of dogma and archaic philosophy is so fragile. It is the same with heterosexual men who feel threatened by homosexual men. Gay panic has even been used as justification for murder in recent times as you may recall. Homosexuals threaten the fragile ideas of heterosexual men who claim never to have thoughts about other men or even check out the size of their wee-wee at the urinal. Likewise, not having a belief in gods is threatening to people who know that most of their hocus-pocus religion is just that. They want hope and they want comfort, so they cling to archaic explanations of the universe and ritual conducted by men in long wool dresses. We all lack confidence, and worry about our self-image. We think that we are somehow inadequate. Children especially, doubt themselves and so accept the religious crutches that are offered. "I am OK in god's eyes," etc. We non-believers threaten them by telling them that the ideas they have accepted as "gospel," are unnecessary and absurd. The "world order" is a huge band of performers spinning plates on long sticks. Each time we ask them why, it distracts them from the plate spinning. They worry about dropping their Jesus plate, or their "wine to blood" plate or their "priests are good, sexless people" plate, or their "nuclear family" plate, or their "god blesses America" plate. But personally I experience a childish glee when one of the plates falls to the floor and smashes.

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05-19-2003, 03:42 PM	#13
Zora Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 571	Interesting, faust. I was wondering where that statistic came from, too. My atheist family has always owned a firearm or two. My father, when young, was a hunter then later gave it up as seeming unfair to the poor animals. However, he did feel that it was his duty to protect his family and livestock in a rural area. My husband owns guns for the same reason. We are so remote, somebody could cut a hole in the wall with a chainsaw and chop us up, too, and nobody would hear a thing. Our cows have been cornered by dogs, and so have my cats. I was threatened by a couple (dogs, not fundies) with the pack mentality just the other day. We shot over them, not at them, to scare them away but would have had to shoot them if that hadn't worked. (There is no animal control officer here.) Missouri defeated a "right to carry" law a couple years ago. A mixed blessing, I guess. I am not sure there is much worse than a fundy with a gun...unless its an atheist without one. Just kidding!

05-19-2003, 11:12 PM	#14
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	There are a couple of things to say. First, it helps create group cohesion to have an enemy. The "us" vs. "them" mentality works great for keeping people in line. So you are not going to be successful in getting rid of hatred and prejudice, particularly when the belief system is based upon belief without sufficient evidence (i.e., bigotry or prejudice). This leads us directly to the second point, which is that Christians are afraid of imaginary things, like God and Satan. With being afraid of atheists, at least they are afraid of things that really exist, so it is really far more rational than many of their beliefs. Oh, and I think you are being overly optimistic about what we have gotten over in the U.S.

05-20-2003, 07:45 AM	#15
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	This thread has been quite entertaining for me, as a Christian. I think that Pyrrho's last post was quite accurate--and explained Conchobar's post quite well. Humans like to have an us vs. them, it makes them feel secure and defines the way they act towards others by generalizing about the "other" and then not having to think if their generalization is correct. Lately I've become tired of stating that I don't hate atheists, nor am I threatened or afraid of them. Now I'm over that--you may dream up all sorts of things and assign them to me, as that is much easier. It is amusing how often I hear on this board that the diversity of Christian thought is a large factor against its truth--and yet, in spite of that diversity, American Christians seem to act in such a monolithic way according to the OP. Hmm. --tibac

05-20-2003, 08:44 AM	#16
Maverick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 6,367	After reading Wildernesse's post I think this thread will be better served by getting perspective from the other side of the aisle. I am moving this to GRD so that theists can respond also, since they are the subject of the question. Maverick - SL&S Moderator

05-20-2003, 09:01 AM	#18
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Well I don't see it myself. Are atheists getting seriously paranoid or what? Come on now-----you must realize that fundamentalist Christians are a MINORITY in this country. I know that they are a very loud and obnoxious minority and very hard headed minority --------but still a minority. I agree about the am radio talk show stuff. Talk radio is overwhelmingly conservative in ALL ways. --- (What happened to the supposed liberal media bias in this country??)--- I listen to it for the laughs. -------------Actually, overall, even allowing for conservative am radio, we have a pretty balanced media system in this country. There is plenty of media access for all types of viewpoints. Trust me------the OVERWHELMING majority of mainstream Christians are not going to let that dinky minority of ding bats ruin your lives. You are making a big to do about nothing.

05-20-2003, 09:07 AM	#19
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	Well actually most of the theists that post on THIS board are rather by definition the exception that proves the rule don't you think? That is, if they were afraid they wouldn't even be here to post how they ain't scared. However it could also be some subconscious fear that motivates some here. But that just goes to show the variety of inividuals in the world.

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