Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Koyaanisqatsi · 05-03-2002, 11:15 AM

Yet another example of your poor scholarship and lack of deductive logic, lenny! When will this stop?

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Another very good source on ancient Jewish burial customs, and on the S of Turin in general is: <a href="http://www.theshroudofturin.com/evidence.htm" target="_blank">http://www.theshroudofturin.com/evidence.htm</a>

Already established as biased, but don't take my word for it folks.

[quote]MORE: One of the more relevant sections is as follows:

Quote:

BURIAL CONSISTENT WITH ANCIENT JEWISH BURIAL CUSTOM

The burial is consistent with ancient Jewish burial customs in all respects,

Already proved incorrect.

Quote:

MORE: including the use of cave-tombs, attitude of the body (hands folded over loins), and types of burial cloths.

Cloths, eh? What cloths would that be? A shirt, pants, hat, prayer shawl...?

Quote:

MORE: The Sindon (Shroud) enveloped the body.

The clothed body is what's missing. The bodies were traditionally dressed in clothing as part of the tachrichim!

Quote:

MORE: The Sudarium was a face-cloth used to cover the face out of respect from removal from the cross to entombment.

False.

Quote:

MORE: It was then removed and placed to one side.

Inside the tomb and left there?

Quote:

MORE: There was also chin-band holding the mouth closed. The Othonia were bandages used to bind the wrists and legs. All are mentioned in the New Testament and
evidenced on the Cloth. Such cloths are mentioned in the New Testament and are spoken of in the Misnah - oral traditions of the Rabbis written down in the second and third century.

And what is also mentioned by the Rabbis in the second century that is conveniently ommitted here? Yes, the clothing and the fact that such linens were establised in the second century, not prior.

It is what is ommitted that is the most damning.

Quote:

MORE: The Cave-Tombs were carved out of sides of limestone hills. The presence of Calcium Carbonate (limestone dust) was noted by Dr. Eugenia Nitowski (Utah archaeologist) in her studies of the cave tombs of Jerusalem on the Cloth.

Yeah, because there's no other way that [i]calcium carbonate[/b] could possibly have gotten on the shroud over the centuries of movement and display.

Quote:

MORE: Optical Engineer Sam Pellicori noted in 1978 the presence of dirt particles on nose, on the left knee and heel. Prof. Giovanni Riggi noted burial mites. Dr. Garza-Valdes discovered oak tubules (microscopic splinters) in the blood of the occipital area (back of head) as well as natron salts. Traces of aloes and myrrh have also been identified found on the Cloth. All of these are consistent with Jewishburial customs of antiquity.

But not complete and not descriptive of first century practice!

F*ckin hell!

It is abundantly clear that if I continue in this manner we are going to play chase after leonarde's obfuscations, so no more.

Address my only my posts and provide only direct quotes in support of your counter arguments.

All other ancillary side-track posts will be ignored as the obvious propaganda they are.

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 12:44 PM

Koy,
You need to stop replying so, so, so...sponTA-
neously. The sources I cited and which you have yet to refute indicate that there were at LEAST
two(2) regimens for burial proceedures according
to Jewish customs of the 1st Century:

1)one for those who died a non-violent death.

2)one for those who died a violent death.

A crucifixion was a violent death. The victim depicted in the Shroud was nude under the Shroud.
The Gospel tell us that Jesus' clothes were divided by the Roman soldiers. There is perfect consistency on this point. Actually there is perfect consistency on ALL points that I can think
of relating to the burial. Yelling that I am being
"non-deductive" isn't going to convince anyone unless you can refute the fact that violent-death
corpses were buried in a different manner from
non-violent-death corpses. Given that a number of
Jewish sources all say this, there is little chance of that point being refuted. Another very good source for the Shroud which I don't believe I gave on the 18 pager but which is a good summary of many of the facets of the Shroud, including 1st Century Jewish burial practices is at
<a href="http://www.shroud.com/rbtperry.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/rbtperry.pdf</a> I'll be back with more.....tonite or tomorrow!
Cheers!

hezekiah jones · 05-03-2002, 12:50 PM

Wow leonard(e) of ARN, you are so busted. Keep at it though old chum(p); Koy's replies are priceless.

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 12:55 PM

From Koy's very first post here (about 1/4 of the
whole page!!!):

Quote:

the tomb was not empty according to Mark, the first to create the myth; there was a man inside. Not an angel sitting on the rock, but a man sitting inside.

Do you think he was waiting for a bus, Koy?
Or was there a strike of the transit workers?

Cheers!

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 12:59 PM

Posted by Hezekiah:

Quote:

Wow leonard(e) of ARN, you are so busted.

Yes, I know: I had several pages of Koy's inimitable "deductive logic" on the 18 page Shroud thread. I take it from the response that his, uh, reasoning style is
one of the best here??? Vewy impwessive, Mister
Kotter!!!

Cheers!

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 01:13 PM

Posted by Koy:

Quote:

A catholic website, no less.
Gee, I wonder if the Holy Roman Empire would have any reason to revise the idea that Pontius
Pilate was actually a brutal, ruthless mass murderer who was recalled to Rome and subsequently committed suicide as a result of his massacre of the Samaritans, considering the fact that the passion narratives all paint him out to be afraid of a crowd of Jews at a ceremony that never took place after a trial that would have never occurred, in order to make the Jews (commonly known as Christ Killers) to be the enemy and Pilate nothing more than a pawn to their overwhelmingly powerful influence?

No one is preventing you from presenting contrary
source material on Pontius Pilate but you don't
really seem very interested in him, just
as in the first thread you weren't really interested in the cause of death(!!!!). It is difficult to discuss subject X with someone who is obviously not in the slightest bit interested in
the details of subject X.

It is like discussing baseball with someone who
cares nothing about:
1)batting lineups.
2)the hit and run play.
3)squeeze play.
4)base stealing.
5)when to send in a pinch hitter.
6)when to pull a starting pitcher.
etc.
As I mentioned in the first Shroud thread, the truth about that Shroud is accessible to those who
care to learn the details. You, despite having done a little research on Jewish burial practices, evidently don't or perhaps you
lack the mental flexibility to deal with the fact
that those 1st Century Jews who died a violent death were buried in a way different from those who died a non-violent death.
Cheers!

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 01:46 PM

Part of a source quoted by Koy:

Quote:

According to the Professor L.Y. Rahamni, an Israeli specialist in the category, no coins have ever been found in any tomb for the period from 50 BC to 70 AD. 3

The main reason, as I mentioned I believe
in the 18 page Shroud thread, that few coins are
found at ancient Jewish tombs is that they then
practiced secondary burials: after many months had
passed, the remains were reinterred and by that
time the coins were superfluous.
Buuut there is evidence of such coins anyway:
<a href="http://www.shroud.com/lombatti.htm" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/lombatti.htm</a>
This was an exchange via email between an historian named Lombatti (an authenticity doubter)
and Alan Whanger who was already cited by Koy on
this thread. A part of one response by Whanger:

Quote:

Professor Lombatti quotes Professor L. Y. Rahamni of the Israel Department of Antiquities as saying, "No coins of the period
50 BC to 70 AD were found in any tomb." This is in rather curious contrast to an article "Jason's Tomb" in the ISRAEL
EXPLORATION JOURNAL, Vol. 17, No. 2 (1967), pp 61-100 written by L. Y. Rahmani who excavated this tomb in Jerusalem in 1956. In this tomb, which had been used over many years, Rahmani details finding a number of bronze coins.
Five of these were from the Hasmonean period, two were from the Herodian period, and forty-six were from the time of the Procurators. Thirty-six of the coins were at the foot of the body remains and six from its middle. Seven of the coins were the
"Julia" lepta of Pontius Pilate, the coin we identified over the left eye from 29 AD, and twenty-one of the coins were the lituus
lepta from 30 AD, the type found over the right eye. I had previously cited the article by Dr.R Hachlili about her excavations in
tombs in Jericho, where she found four coins, two of them lepta from 41-44 AD inside a skull. In a later article Hachlili and
Killebrew report on coins being found in two skulls from Jericho and a number of coins found in tombs in the Jerusalem area
("Was the Coin-on-Eye Custom a Jewish Burial Practice in the Second Temple Period?", BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGIST,
summer 1983, pp. 147-153). They also discuss the finding of coins, including those in skulls in "Jewish Funerary Customs
during the Second Temple Period, in Light of the Excavations at the Jericho Necropolis" by R. Hachlili and A. Killebrew, in
PALESTINE EXPLORATION QUARTERLY, Vol. 115 (1983), pp. 109-132. Of even more interest is the report of
archaeologist Zvi Greenhut in "Burial Cave of the Caiaphas Family" in BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY REVIEW, Vol. 18, no.
5, September 1992, pp 29-36, in which he reports finding a lepton from 42/43 AD inside the skull of a woman in one of the
ossuaries. While Greenhut still thought that a coin could somehow get from the mouth into the skull, he does discuss the issue
of coins found in Jewish tombs. He states: "Furthermore, I believe we must now regard coins discovered in the context of
Jewish tombs from the Second temple period to be elements connected to the burial ceremony, despite the fact that they have
not always been found in direct relation to the skulls or bodies of the deceased."

But enough about the coins, n'est-ce pas?
Cheers!

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 01:58 PM

Posted by Koy:

Quote:

Good, then we both agree that Jesus was a false prophet. Since this, too, is irrelevant to any
arguments I made and we both agree that Jesus was a false prophet, we can dismiss this.

I thought your position was that no such person
ever existed. Was I wrong? Even a false prophet
would have to exist to "deceive" people. Yes, I
find your positions rather perplexing. They seem
to change from post to post. But perhaps it is
because I lack your "deductive reasoning" (!!).
Cheers!

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 02:29 PM

A very interesting URL with which I was not familiar is:
<a href="http://shroud.com/bsts4704.htm" target="_blank">http://shroud.com/bsts4704.htm</a>
wherein Dr. Alan Whanger relates his long-standing
research on the Shroud of Turin. Worth looking at.
It was linked to one of Koy's sites.
Cheers!

leonarde · 05-03-2002, 03:57 PM

Another nice little site especially for visuals:
<a href="http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/" target="_blank">http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/</a>
Cheers!

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05-03-2002, 12:44 PM	#22
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Koy, You need to stop replying so, so, so...sponTA- neously. The sources I cited and which you have yet to refute indicate that there were at LEAST two(2) regimens for burial proceedures according to Jewish customs of the 1st Century: 1)one for those who died a non-violent death. 2)one for those who died a violent death. A crucifixion was a violent death. The victim depicted in the Shroud was nude under the Shroud. The Gospel tell us that Jesus' clothes were divided by the Roman soldiers. There is perfect consistency on this point. Actually there is perfect consistency on ALL points that I can think of relating to the burial. Yelling that I am being "non-deductive" isn't going to convince anyone unless you can refute the fact that violent-death corpses were buried in a different manner from non-violent-death corpses. Given that a number of Jewish sources all say this, there is little chance of that point being refuted. Another very good source for the Shroud which I don't believe I gave on the 18 pager but which is a good summary of many of the facets of the Shroud, including 1st Century Jewish burial practices is at <a href="http://www.shroud.com/rbtperry.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.shroud.com/rbtperry.pdf</a> I'll be back with more.....tonite or tomorrow! Cheers!

05-03-2002, 12:50 PM	#23
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Wow leonard(e) of ARN, you are so busted. Keep at it though old chum(p); Koy's replies are priceless.

05-03-2002, 02:29 PM	#29
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	A very interesting URL with which I was not familiar is: <a href="http://shroud.com/bsts4704.htm" target="_blank">http://shroud.com/bsts4704.htm</a> wherein Dr. Alan Whanger relates his long-standing research on the Shroud of Turin. Worth looking at. It was linked to one of Koy's sites. Cheers!

05-03-2002, 03:57 PM	#30
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Another nice little site especially for visuals: <a href="http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/" target="_blank">http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/</a> Cheers!

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