WJ

Hi Luv!

Another good post!

Sounds like another mind-body phenomenon relative to consciousness. And no, you can't 'see' feelings. Nor can we 'see' air, but yet we know it exists.


Personally, I have yet to see an atheist explain what it is that they are waiting to see? Can any atheist answer that one?

For instance, consider the following: What if God appeared before man, how would you think you would know it? (And why is that important?)

Walrus
--------
Indeed, Atheism is just another Religion. No?

ex-preacher

There are many things I have never seen with my own eyes, but I still believe in, such as wind, the far side of the moon, gravity, my lungs, Abraham Lincoln, and luvluv. Yet, for each of these I have what I think are very good pieces of evidence suggesting that they really exist. I do not have such evidence for any ghost (holy or otherwise), goblin, god, alien creature, leprachaun, Santa or invisible pink unicorn.


<strong> As for myself, I would take any one of the supposed miracles in the Bible. Some examples:
- a dead man (let's say George Washington) raised from the dead
- the parting of the Mississippi
- the miraculous feeding of Ethiopia
- water into wine
- speaking in tongues (not gibberish)
- regrowth of a missing arm, leg, eyeball

If anyone can produce any of these or other miracles, I suggest you contact James Randi immediately and collect your $1 million.

<strong> Hmmmm. I think if a god existed, s/h/it would know the answer to that one.

<strong> No. Atheism is the lack of a belief in god. It is no more a religion than is the lack of belief in leprachauns.

WJ

Well, then why don't we discuss leprachauns...?

As to the former, did you 'see' any miracles? Ever have any personal ones? And even if you did, how is physically 'seeing' a miracle relevent to a belief system based on metaphysics?

For instance, most of us don't believe ghost's exist either, yet we see 'electrical' phenomena that doesn't quite seem to explain why things behave the way they do by 'seeing' 'objects' move. Point is of course, what is an Atheist hoping or wanting to 'see'? Is God a physical object?

Walrus

ex-preacher

Let's do!

<strong> Have you ever "seen" a leprachaun? Ever encounter any personal ones? And if you did, how is physically "seeing" a leprachaun relevant to a belief system based on fliberdigibbet?

<strong> Exactly! Haven't you ever "misplaced" something which later re-appeared in a place you didn't expect? Leprachauns, my friend!


<strong> Quite so, good buddy. You aleprachaunists are so pedantic and literal-minded. Have you ever "seen" the end of a rainbow? Then who's to say there's no "gold" there? What is the frequency, Kenneth?

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

WJ

Ok great!

Let us begin the leper.[in short] discussion with why you believe they exist, like you said? In otherwords, your idea/concept of a leper is that they are able to perform miracles. Of course, that would be silly to think that. But wait, lepers could exist, no!? [What is the essence of a miracle...?]

Point being, you haven't been able to establish the truth behind the concept of a miracle, let alone the existence of a leper, [and/or the analogy to a God]. So, your assertions are really 'apriori gibberish' which anyone could assert, pertaining to a some-thing, thereby implying that there exists real meaning to its thingness-Being.

This takes us back to the question of the original post, what is the Atheist expecting to 'see'?

Walrus

ex-preacher

Looks like we agree!

<strong> Based on experience and reason, I expect to "see" nothing of god or leprachaun. I am aware of no credible evidence that either "exists." Have a good "one."

Tristan Scott

I suppose if I were a god who wanted to have people believe in me through faith alone, that I would not want to be seen.

What would be my motivation for allowing any evidence of me to exist?

ex-preacher

double post

[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

free12thinker

[QUOTE]Originally posted by luvluv:
[QB]Yeah there is a lot to be discounted in the article, obviously we can see the effects of magnetism and know it exists.

But his argument about the mind itself is pretty good. There is no instrument in the known universe which can record the specific content of your thoughts. If you were just thoughts, with no medium to express your thoughts (i.e. no body) how could you ever be detected? Consciousness, as it were, is not currently an observable phenomenon. So what if God is simply a massive mind? How could we ever detect it?

There is at least one thing that we know to exist which we cannot prove to exist.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]

Luv Luv,
without a medium to express such thoughts there would be no thoughts. Consciousness may not be observable as a physical entity, but consciousness is observable as a matter of fact through other observances. For instances, if I am factually alive and coherent, than my conscious is presently there. But, if I were to be hit by a baseball bat, and it knocked me out and took my breadth away or my state of being, than my conscious is presently absent.

When Atheists argue that a God does not exist because we haven't seen it, we are not simply talking about ourselves, nor are we making that the only basis for disbelief. We are going by recorded history. No one that is alive today has seen George Washington, but there's enough "consistency" to his recorded history that warrants our belief that he did exist. For Jesus Christ and God, the mysteries are too mysterious to fathom for some. The interpretation of their intentions, histories, stories, existence, which god?, and other question marks pile up to such confusion. These reasons lead to our doubt in an existence. On top of that, we have scientific fact that proves evolution.

I don't think you will find one atheist who will tell you that the only reason they don't believe in God, is because they have not seen him.

The question really is, why should we believe in God, but not believe in other phenomena that have been recorded through history? God certainly argues against our right to believe in witchcraft and such.

ex-preacher

I think you're on to something! Is it possible that god was knocked unconscious by a huge, metaphysical baseball?