Friend

Why is there a claim to separate the state from the church in schools, when schools were created by the Church? So why not just build new secular schools? Also, it would be the same with the top colleges (Harvard, princeton, etc) in the US. They were all built by the Church and why not build new Colleges that are of the state? In separating the Church from the State, why does the State govern marriage within the church since marriage in the Church should not be taxed nor deemed a marriage by the State (in the framework of separation of church and state)?

Just curious. These are things someone has brought up before in a conversation and didn't know what to say.

~ Friend ~

dangin

Schools being made by a church, or founded by a church has nothing to do with them being "separate" if they are publicly funded now.

If they are church funded then they are private and they can do as they please. To quote Deacon Fred, they can teach the talking snake theory if they want.

Colleges and Universities are even more clear. Public funds, no establishment. But then even secular universities usually have chapels, they have services on sundays, and sometimes wednesdays. But no one is "forced" to go. The chapel at my University was run by ordained members of the religion department, but was used more for guest preachers, who were really more like guest lecturers. Tony Campolo came once and actually was getting students who were objecting to his message during his "sermon". I'd go to church if we got to stand up and argue with the sermon.

Marriage is a legal status. You apply for, pay for, and sign a legal document that makes you married. This is a state thing. A church wedding is nothing until the license is signed. If you sign the license before your ceremony, then the ceremony is wasted time before the cake and the sex. If you sign the license after the ceremony, you've said "I do", you've kissed, grandma has cried, but you aren't married yet. You have to sign the license.

"Marriage within the church should not be taxed" does not mean anything. Marriage within the church is poetry, it is for show, it is two people standing up in front of everyone saying we want to have sex and this is the way for all of you to approve of it. Marriage within the church means nothing to the state, and as I said above, does not matter to the state. The signing of the license is a state activity, and it changes one's status in the eyes of the state, and one's tax resposibilities. The church stuff is irrelevant.

dangin

I've been married twice, believe me I know.

Friend

Dangin-

Then if one is not forced to pray in school, why is there hype over "moments of silence" or things posted on the wall if people don't have to read them?

Thanks.

~ Friend ~

Godless Dave

There isn't too much hype about moments of silence. Most teachers I know would like to see their students engage in more minutes of silence!

As for "In God we trust" posted on the wall, it's a government establishment of religion, and therefore unconstitutional. The reason it's a big deal is it gives the message to students that the government is encouraging people to trust in a particular god. Saying "in God we trust" implies that "we" is everybody, and if you don't trust in God you are unAmerican and not worthy of being included in "we".

Jewel

Personally I feel like since the kids are in school they should be learning something. The moment of silence is a useless waste of time.

The 'God Bless America' and 'In God We Trust' plastered all over the walls of a public school serves no educational purpose. It is the government forcing it's idea of religion on students. Those statements basically say that everyone (as GD said) should believe in god in order to be a patriotic American. And that is plain wrong.

dangin

The use of publicly funded buildings, employees, or monies, to promote one religion over another or over none is contrary to the establishment clause. Churches can rent a school for their services, but this means the school must be available to any group under equal access. A school can have a student led bible club, but this means the school has to allow a gay bisexual and transgender clubs, and satanist, pagan clubs that are student led too.

Public announcement posting boards are once again OK for students to utilyze for whatever purpose, but a religious group using it means that every group gets to use it.

Finally, a moment of silence is inclusive of almost all religions, but seems to be a slight against the unreligious. Fredom of religion cannot exist without freedom from religion. A moment of silence is implicity religious because it implies being used for prayer.

dangin

I guess technically any school that posts "In God We Trust" on it's wall could be sued under equal access if an atheist student was refused the right to post a sign that read "In God We Don't Trust", or "In God We Don't Believe".

Sounds like a great test case to me.

Jewel

Hmmmm, interesting idea, dangin.

simian

The defense would be, of course, that "one is OUR national motto, the other is not." To disagree would be to be anti-Christian - er, I mean anti-American.

Simian