Freethought & Rationalism Archive

leonarde · 05-13-2002, 05:39 AM

Posted by Gurdur:

Quote:

This is getting really dumb and ridiculous.

I agree. Take your
pre-onset state and depart!! And give my regards
to Koy!

leonarde · 05-13-2002, 07:20 AM

Hiw, evahbuhdy!! I'm Linda Richmond and this, this
show is called "Cawfee Tawk". Today we have NO guests but the topic is da Shroud of Turin. Naw
I know nothin' about the Shroud of Turin except that it's some kinda shroud and it's in Turin. Is
that near Toledo? HEHEHEHEHEHEHE!
Luckily we have a backup topic which is the religious beliefsss of Dostoevsky who seems to be
some kinda ritter who lived like AGES AGO! But that's about it. Ain't really read up on 'im. Also
we're supposed to talk about his lumbago, least ways I THINK it's his lumbago. And oh yeah his
hemorrhoids! Yuck!
So how do you think the 'rrhoids affected his writing? Did he have to write standing up all the
time? Did he use a pillow? Use yer imaginaaation
that's the main thing. But just thinkin' about it
gives me the sniffles!!! I'm verklempft, so talk
amongst yourselves!

Koyaanisqatsi · 05-13-2002, 12:25 PM

I was out, but they pull me back in!

Actually, I just came back to "speak" to rbochnermd:

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:
After reading this thread, I, similar to Koy, was left wondering what evidence there is that 1st century AD Jews distinguished violent from non-violent deaths in their burial practices?

This is a great question, Rick and will serve to finally nail leonarde's lack of scholarly integrity coffin shut.

Let's look as his "answer:"

Quote:

leonarde: Did you read the post that included a quotation
from Lamm, an expert (I believe he is a rabbi)on
Jewish funeral practices?

Not an answer.

But here is an answer that should help to deal with Rick's (and my) question:

Quote:

From <a href="http://www.aish.com/literacy/lifecycle/The_Jewish_Way_of_Death.asp" target="_blank">The Jewish Way of Death</a> by Rabbi Maurice Lamm (emphasis mine): PREPARATION OF THE REMAINS

"As he came, so shall he go," says Ecclesiastes. Just as a newborn child is immediately washed and enters this world clean and pure, so he who departs this world must be cleansed and made pure through the religious ritual called taharah, "purification."

The taharah is performed by the Chevra Kadisha (the Holy Society, i.e. the Burial Society), consisting of Jews who are knowledgeable in the area of traditional duties, and can display proper respect for the deceased. In addition to the physical cleansing and preparation of the body for burial, they also recite the required prayers asking God for forgiveness for any sins the deceased may have committed, and praying that God may guard him and grant him eternal peace.

Jewish tradition recognizes the democracy of death. It therefore demands that all Jews be buried in the same type of garment -- a simple white shroud. Wealthy or poor, all are equal before God, and that which determines their reward is not what they wear, but what they are. Almost 2,000 years ago, Rabbi Gamaliel instituted this practice so that the poor would not be shamed and the wealthy would not vie with each other in displaying the costliness of their burial clothes.

Who was that again? Rabbi Gamaliel? Would that be the same Rabbi Gamaliel that I established as having instituted "this practice" in the second century CE?

The same Rabbi who described the tahara as a complete set of linen clothing, including a hat, a shirt, a pair of pants, a shawl, etc.?

And what's this about Rabbi Gamaliel instituting this ritual because so that the poor would not be shamed and the wealthy--like Joseph of Arimathea--would not vie with each other in displaying the costliness of their burial clothes, otherwise known as the tachrichm, which are? Anyone? A hat, a shirt, a pair of pants, a prayer shawl, etc., etc., etc.

So far, Rabbi Lamm is confirming everything I posted and leonarde CONSISTENTLY AVOIDS ADDRESSING.

Let's see what else Lamm tells us:

Quote:

MORE: The clothes to be worn should be appropriate for one who is shortly to stand in judgment before God Almighty, Master of the universe and Creator of man. Therefore, they should be simple, handmade, perfectly clean, and white. These shrouds symbolize purity, simplicity, and dignity.

Notice YET AGAIN that when discussing the shroud it is all inclusive; a set of clothing, not just a sheet.

Quote:

MORE: BURIAL

The Bible, in its mature wisdom, required burial to take place as soon as possible following death.

The religious concept underlying this law is that man, made in the image of God, should be accorded the deepest respect.

It is considered a matter of great shame and discourtesy to leave the deceased unburied -- his soul has returned to God, but his body is left to linger in the land of the living.

Jewish law is unequivocal in establishing absolutely, and uncompromisingly, that the dead must be buried in the earth.

I'm sorry, Rabbi Lamm, what was that again? Jewish law is unequivocal in establishing absolutely, and uncompromisingly, that the dead must be buried in the earth?

That's mighty stringent terminology with no room to wiggle in. Buried in the earth.

Hmmmm.

Buried in the earth as opposed to placed in a tomb? In the earth...

Considering it's so stringent and taking into consideration leonarde's assertions regarding the fear the Sanhedrin had of Jesus' body being stolen, why the hell did they allow the body to placed in a tomb?

Deductive reasoning.

Quote:

MORE FROM LAMM: Man's body returns to the earth as it was.

Really. So, tomb equals womb, is that it, leonarde?

Remember, we're discussing what the traditions were and what course of action Joseph would have most likely followed accordingly, not trying every pathetic attempt to get around those traditions.

Quote:

MORE FROM LAMM: The soul rises to God, but the physical shelter, the chemical elements that clothed the soul, sink into the vast reservoir of nature.

"For dust thou art, and unto dust shaft thou return" (Genesis 3:19)

From dust to dust, eh...

Fascinating how your own source so far has confirmed everything I posted.

Let's see if we can find anything else from Lamm:

Quote:

MORE FROM LAMM: NON-JEWISH CUSTOMS

Cremation is never permitted. The deceased must be interred, bodily, in the earth. It is forbidden -- in every and any circumstance -- to reduce the dead to ash in a crematorium. It is an offensive act, for it does violence to the spirit and letter of Jewish law, which never, in the long past, sanctioned the ancient pagan practice of burning on the pyre.

The Jewish abhorrence of cremation has already been noted by Tacitus, the Roman historian of the 1st century CE, who remarked upon what appeared to be a distinguishing characteristic that Jews buried, rather than burned, their dead.

Nothing applicable, though we now have Tacitus' confirmation that burial in the earth was the practice. Burial in the earth as opposed to placement in a tomb that must have been more like a cave; i.e., on top of the earth for there to have been a "large stone" that magically rolled away for the Marys et al to enter...

But what about those other burial tombs found in Israel to this day?

Were they above or below the ground (i.e., in the Earth)? The NT myths imply that Jesus' tomb was above ground, with a huge rock in front.

Unless I'm missing any references to the Mary's crawling or digging down into the ground?

Oh, that's right. Leonarde considers be "buried in the earth" to be the same thing as being "placed in a tomb."

I'm glad we all care what leonarde thinks.

Quote:

MORE FROM LAMM: In ancient days, the Talmud informs us, fragrant flowers and spices were used at the funeral to offset the odor of the decaying body. Today, this is no longer essential and they should not be used at Jewish funerals at all.

Hey! What do you know? Flowers! No mention, however, of fragrant flowers being wrapped into the tachrichm, but hey, why should details concern us?

Nor is there any mention of such things as the tools that were used by others in the death of the victim being placed in the tachrichm, like your own source, lenny, who also claimed to have found an image of the hasta (the "jabbing spear") as well as a sponge in the shroud of Turin, but hey, just ignore those facts too.

It clouds your deductive reasoning.

Quote:

MORE FROM LAMM: Another custom which is definitely alien to Jewish custom, and its spirit does violence to Jewish sensitivity and tradition is the "wake."

Visiting the funeral parlor on the night before interment to comfort the mourners and to view the remains is clearly a Christian religious practice, and not merely an American folkway.

In Judaism, the place for offering condolences is at home, during the seven special days of mourning called shivah.

But, what about placing coins over the eyes so that they don't pop open during rigor mortis? Wasn't that for the purpose of keeping them closed during the viewing?

Oh, that's right, Jewish custom is to have no viewing of the body so there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to put coins over the eyes to keep the eyes from popping open, especially since Jesus' head was already allegedly wrapped in a napkin.

But, again, let's not get all caught up in the details!

Still nothing regarding an official designation of "violent death" and what necessarily happens as a result of so classifying a death as a "violent death," though, but then, that was only an excerpt and since you continue to avoid directly quoting at length I'll have to go yet again elsewhere...

I searched and searched and could only find the following. This will prove extremely enlightening:

Quote:

From <a href="http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/burial/bodysoul.htm" target="_blank">Shema Yisrael website</a>: Minutes after the Hitler de jour detonates 30 pounds of TNT packed with nails on an Israeli street, the chevra kadisha burial society appears on the scene, climbing the trees and scraping the stucco for loose blood, fingers, legs, and even a head-a severed head that is catapulted by the force of the blast several stories high through the rain, landing in a thud in its own pool of blood on a balcony near the bus route, as one head did last Sunday in Jerusalem.

Somewhere in America, just about whenever another wonderchild visiting Israel is sacrificed to Moloch, a phone rings in Kew Gardens, Queens, as it did last week; a chevra kaddisha from the town of the dead child is calling Rabbi Elchonon Zohn.

He is the director of the Chevra Kadisha of the Vaad HaRabonim of Queens, and the acknowledged authority on how to prepare the most damaged of bodies for burial.

We'll spare the family by not saying the town where these calls have come from, but we won't spare you, dear reader. If Rabbi Zohn has to hear the questions, so do you. This is what Jewish history sounds like:

The out-of-state chevra tells Rabbi Zohn that they are expecting the body of the dead young person, but how should the body be prepared for burial?

Holy shit! You can't get more violent a death than a body that's been blown up!

I wonder what the procedure is regarding the tahara in this most violent of deaths? I wonder if (as your source told us) the arrangements would be...oh, how did you put it again...?

Quote:

Lenny: Let me quote Wilson: As any true expert in Jewish burial tradition will point out, the particular deceased person whom we see on the Shroud would have needed very different funerary arrangements because he self-evidently died a violent death of a crucifixion during which his body became extensively stained with his life-blood.

Wow. Since you repeatedly refuse to provide us with what those "very different funerary arrangements" were, perhaps we can discover from my source, considering that, unlike your contention that Jesus died a violent death and my contention that Jesus died a martyr's death no one could mistake an explosion for anything other than a violent death:

Quote:

MORE: How can we do a tahara-the ritual washing and preparation of the body-if the body is returned to the United States in pieces?

What if the body-the person-is little more than burns and ooze, blood and bones, which is often the case these days, for one does not exit an exploding bus looking like the pictures from the yearbook and family albums that are reprinted in the newspaper.

Rabbi Zohn explains, "We won't wash the bones that are protruding, but maybe we can wash around it.

What was that again? Wash around the protruding bones?

But, this was a violent death...

Quote:

MORE: "We can't wash and dress the body as we normally would, if that would further damage the body. When there is tremendous physical trauma, we follow what customs we can follow.

Fascinating...they do indeed follow "different funerary arrangements," but how different? They wash as much as possible (taking care not to further damage the body), but what about a burial shroud?

Quote:

MORE: "We will dress the body," says Rabbi Zohn, "at least symbolically, with the shrouds atop the body."

Well, there you go, lenny. Confirmation of what you've been alleging that certainly sounds like your argument, if we were to do as you do and stop there.

But what is the very next line regarding "the shrouds atop the body" that sounds so much like the Shroud of Turin?

Quote:

MORE (emphasis mine): Jews are buried in shrouds, a full set of clothing, white linen sewn by hand, including a hat, shirt, pants, jacket, a belt and a tallis for a man, plus a final sheet that wraps the person.

See what full disclosure of the evidence provides us with?

Quote:

MORE: "We will first place the sheet in the casket, place the body over the sheet, and then cover the body with the shrouds over the place where it normally would go," the pants laid atop the legs, for example, "if we are unable to place the broken legs into the pants. So we simply cover the legs, so at least the shrouds are there. We might dress just the lower half of the body, or just the top half, if that is all that is possible."

Well, so much for what the process is for a decidedly violent death, but still nothing regarding a custom like you allege.

Quote:

MORE: Rabbi Zohn says "There is a custom that if a person is killed violently, particularly if he or she was killed because he or she was a Jew, than that person is buried as he or she was found, Sometimes we won't even take off the victim's clothes.

Holy shit! Is this what you were talking about?

No, of course not, since it doesn't apply to Jesus. Jesus was not killed because he or she was a Jew, remember? He was killed...

Why was he killed again?

Oh, yeah, because Pilate was afraid of the crowd.

There is no reason he was killed, though Pilate (for no discernible reason whatsoever) does put "King of the Jews" (allegedly) on his cross, right?

So, surely he must have been killed because he was Jewish, right? Wrong! He was killed because he wasn't Jewish enough if you use deductive reasoning.

Pilate found him innocent of all Roman crimes, so it can't be because of any crimes against Rome, so the "king of the Jews" nonsense doesn't apply. He wasn't the "king of the Jews" and he never claimed to be the "king of the Jews."

So why was he killed and who ultimately is responsible? According to the NT, the Sanhedrin is to blame (they incited the crowd and somehow forced Pilate to try him, yes?).

And why did they want him killed? Because of blasphemy, not because he was Jewish!

Not to mention the fact that there would be no reason Joseph would have considered Jesus' death to have fallen under such conditions, but don't take my word for it. Take the Bible's word for it!

The custom was to bury "as is," not to anoint and wrap the head in one cloth and bind/wrap the body in linens/cloths as is described, so we have biblical confirmation that Joseph did not consider Jesus' death to fall under the "violent death" guidelines you allege, lenny, but more than that, we have deductive reasoning and the fact that such a custom is not even followed when a body is blown into pieces!

But what else might discredit the notion that Joseph would have discarded all burial traditions of high stature when burying what he considered to be (at least) the possible Son of God, murdered by the Romans and therefore befitting the highest, most lavishly performed tahara imaginable?

What is the underlying belief behind the more obscure "violent death" custom?

Quote:

MORE: The belief is that when this person appears before God in such a horrifying state, it may arouse compassion from on high and hasten the end of the exile."

Exile? Exile from what? Joseph considered Jesus to have been at least the Son of God if not the actual Messiah. What "compassion" would God not provide his own friggin son, that leaving Jesus "as is" (without anointing and without lavish tachrichm, as was the first century custom) would have "aroused?"

Not to mention the fact that we have the Gospel of John state quite clearly that Joseph did not leave Jesus "as is" in the slightest.

Once again, both the evidence (mine and yours) and deductive logic support my arguments.

Quote:

Leonarde: Wilson cites Victor Tunkel of the University of
London on these Jewish burial customs.

You have provided, yet again, the exact same non-specific quote and done the exact same dishonest attribution:

Quote:

MORE: Also cited
are 13th Century Jewish figure Nahmonides and the
Shulhan Aruch, a code of Jewish law. The latter gives a description of the shroud used in such a
burial: 'a sheet which is called sovev'.
It envelops or wraps the body and is a one piece
cloth.

Says you!

Quote:

MORE: So Wilson is going by one living expert (Tunkel) and two written Jewish sources:
Nahmonides and the Shulhan Aruch. Neither of these
primary sources is available to me. But they, in
turn, agree with Lamm.

Yes, we should all agree with Lamm and remind ourselves yet again that lenny is a dishonest propagandist who obfuscates the truth by omission and deliberate, repeated refusal to follow the most basic evidentiary procedures.

As before, the conclusion is inescapable: leonarde's scholarship is not trustworthy.

Quote:

MORE: Despite Koy's protestations
there doesn't seem to be any disagreement on this
point among JEWISH scholars conversant with ANCIENT Jewish burial customs....

Leonard's propaganda--hell all of what lenoarde truly is--is thus laid bare in that one blatant lie.

I'll leave this thread (once again) quoting your own sources against you lenny:

Quote:

[b]From Maurice Lamm's The Jewish Way in Death and Mourning: The manner of respect is governed and detailed by religious tradition rather than by personal sentiment and whim alone. (p.3)

Non-Jews, under no circumstances, should perform these sacred tasks of preparing the body, for the ritual of tahara is by no means a merely hygienic performance. It is a Jewish religious act. (p.6)

As you can see, rbochnermd, you never will get an answer to your question from leonarde.

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

MadKally · 05-13-2002, 12:35 PM

Bang bang bang goes Koyaanisqatsi's silver hammer

Gurdur · 05-13-2002, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:

Hiw, evahbuhdy!! I'm Linda Richmond and this, this
show is called "Cawfee Tawk". Today we have NO ........all the
time? Did he use a pillow? Use yer imaginaaation
that's the main thing. But just thinkin' about it
gives me the sniffles!!! I'm verklempft, so talk
amongst yourselves!

Leonarde, are you always so idiotic ?

You could either have a mutually interesting conversation, or at least you could state you simply don't know enough about a subject, and therefore not want to talk about it.

Instead of those two sensible options, all you do is try to score rhetorical "points", all the while while you pretend to know things you obviously don't (here I refer to your empty platitudes on epilepsy, a subject which you really don't know much about all - it's easy to see).

Then you get going with your aggressive self-pity.

Get used to the medium here, man !

Different people have different points of interest, and want to discuss different things; I for one am simply not interested in parades of outraged self-pity.

I don't mind people who honestly confess to not knowing something at all; I do object to people who simply want to strut without substance, then end up whining.

Since this thread has as much value as a sick tapeworm (*), I'm checking out of it.

Though I reserve the right to sudenly check back in just to make comments about Leonarde.

Fancy the sheer stupid perversity of that line of leonarde's:

Quote:

I agree. Take your
pre-onset state and depart!! And give my regards
to Koy!

Tsk tsk tsk,

I am outraged,

I must make Leonarde my new target of the month !

______________

(*) My apologies to Katherina and a couple of others; you made some interesting en passant comments here, and I hope we run into each other some time.

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

leonarde · 05-13-2002, 12:57 PM

Gee, Koy made ME a prophet: I predicted many posts
ago his return. Too bad he can only address people
who haven't been reading the thread (that seems to
be a specialty around here!).

Koy was busy lecturing at NYU on Dostoevsky's
atheism. It's a summer course which goes until
August when guest lecturer, Gurdur, will announce
that Dostoevsky's mystical Christianity was a result of certain pre-seizure auras he experienced! Oooooooh, can't WAIT to see the look
on those students' faces!!!!! They MIGHT see some
discrepancy there. God knows (oops, excuse the expression!)that no one HERE will!!

Gurdur too will be back on this thread, if not under that name, then under another: he has SO
MANY of them both at this site and at other sites,
eh Gurdur?
Excuse me but I'm going into a pre-seizure trance
right now and will have to check out. Ta-ta!!!

leonarde · 05-13-2002, 01:29 PM

I would like to repost something that Koy posted on this page:

Quote:

MORE: Rabbi Zohn says "There is a custom that if a person is killed violently,
particularly if he or she was killed because he or she was a Jew, than that person is buried as he or she was found, Sometimes we won't even take off the victim's clothes.

Now in GENERAL I'm not enthusiastic about Koy's quotes on this question since they all seem to use the present or
future tenses (ie they are talking about PRESENT
burial customs NOT those of 2000 years ago). But
in THIS quote it seems to indicate that EVEN TODAY
"there is a custom that if a person is
killed violently, particularly if he or she
was killed because he or she was a Jew, than[sic]
that person is buried as he or she was found, Sometimes we won't even take off the victim's clothes." So EVIDENTLY some version of this custom is STILL followed today. Why Koy finds it
strange in the case of the Man of the Shroud is
bewildering and, I find, inconsistent.
Cheers!

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: leonarde ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi · 05-14-2002, 10:16 AM

Gee...what devastating counter-argumentation. It explains everything and addresses every single argument I made...

It was so...thorough...

Goodbye leonarde.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

Dr Rick · 05-14-2002, 11:44 AM

I have been following this thread and want to thank both Koy and leonarde for a great update on the Shroud "controversy," as I had thought it had been abandoned by all but a hard-core group of theists as a fraud; Koy's evidence and arguments are the more persuasive of the two, imho.

Rick

leonarde · 05-14-2002, 12:04 PM

Rick,
You are welcome! And thank you for your courtesy. Len

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05-13-2002, 07:20 AM	#152
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Hiw, evahbuhdy!! I'm Linda Richmond and this, this show is called "Cawfee Tawk". Today we have NO guests but the topic is da Shroud of Turin. Naw I know nothin' about the Shroud of Turin except that it's some kinda shroud and it's in Turin. Is that near Toledo? HEHEHEHEHEHEHE! Luckily we have a backup topic which is the religious beliefsss of Dostoevsky who seems to be some kinda ritter who lived like AGES AGO! But that's about it. Ain't really read up on 'im. Also we're supposed to talk about his lumbago, least ways I THINK it's his lumbago. And oh yeah his hemorrhoids! Yuck! So how do you think the 'rrhoids affected his writing? Did he have to write standing up all the time? Did he use a pillow? Use yer imaginaaation that's the main thing. But just thinkin' about it gives me the sniffles!!! I'm verklempft, so talk amongst yourselves!

05-13-2002, 12:35 PM	#154
MadKally Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 433	Bang bang bang goes Koyaanisqatsi's silver hammer

05-13-2002, 12:57 PM	#156
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Gee, Koy made ME a prophet: I predicted many posts ago his return. Too bad he can only address people who haven't been reading the thread (that seems to be a specialty around here!). Koy was busy lecturing at NYU on Dostoevsky's atheism. It's a summer course which goes until August when guest lecturer, Gurdur, will announce that Dostoevsky's mystical Christianity was a result of certain pre-seizure auras he experienced! Oooooooh, can't WAIT to see the look on those students' faces!!!!! They MIGHT see some discrepancy there. God knows (oops, excuse the expression!)that no one HERE will!! Gurdur too will be back on this thread, if not under that name, then under another: he has SO MANY of them both at this site and at other sites, eh Gurdur? Excuse me but I'm going into a pre-seizure trance right now and will have to check out. Ta-ta!!!

05-14-2002, 10:16 AM	#158
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Gee...what devastating counter-argumentation. It explains everything and addresses every single argument I made... It was so...thorough... Goodbye leonarde. [ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

05-14-2002, 11:44 AM	#159
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	I have been following this thread and want to thank both Koy and leonarde for a great update on the Shroud "controversy," as I had thought it had been abandoned by all but a hard-core group of theists as a fraud; Koy's evidence and arguments are the more persuasive of the two, imho. Rick

05-14-2002, 12:04 PM	#160
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Rick, You are welcome! And thank you for your courtesy. Len

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