Ed

My understanding is not unique, many scholars would agree with me, yours is however. I have never heard of your absurd interpretation even from the liberals!

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ng: This is what the Bible says. [31] Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. This verse says that by admitting to be sons of those who murdered the prophets, they are testifying against themselves.

Exactly, because they were planning to kill Jesus and persecute his disciples, who were God's new testament prophets.

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ng: See, Ed, you can never just read what the Bible says because you are ashamed of it. You cannot justify it so you need to invent some other story in order to patch it up. Did it ever occur to you that the so called "word of God" should be clear on its own and in no needs of your patches. Does God have problems communicating that He needs your help?

I think that passage is pretty clear, but there are some passages that require expertise in greek and hebrew and knowledge of ancient history. But the requirements for salvation are obvious to even the uneducated.

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ng: The Pharisees had absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' death. According to your faith Jesus' death was planned by God ages before it happened. The people involved were just being used to achieve God's plan. They were framed.

No, although it was part of God's plan, they chose to act by their own free will.

Ed

I think it is pretty clear. The phrase "my skin is destroyed" usually means death in hebrew.

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ng: Look here at Job 14 ... Job 14 7 "For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. 8 "Though its roots grow old in the ground And its stump dies in the dry soil, 9 At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant. 10 "But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? 11 "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. 13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! 14 "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. 15 "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands. 16 "For now You number my steps, You do not observe my sin. 17 "My transgression is sealed up in a bag, And You wrap up my iniquity. 18 "But the falling mountain crumbles away, And the rock moves from its place; 19 Water wears away stones, Its torrents wash away the dust of the earth; So You destroy man's hope. 20 "You forever overpower him and he departs; You change his appearance and send him away. 21 "His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it; Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it. 22 "But his body pains him, And he mourns only for himself." Point 1 7 "For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. ... 10 "But man dies and lies prostrate. Note the BUT There is hope for a tree but not for a man. A tree will live again but not man. 14 "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. Here Job talks about his change (ie his death) but note that he never talks about his rise from death. If a man dies, will he live again? obviously the answer is NO. Otherwise he would talk about his "other change" into eternal life. 20 "You forever overpower him and he departs; You change his appearance and send him away. 21 "His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it; Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it. "he does not know it" Clear enough. In Sheol people know nothing.

Actually verses 13, 14 and 15 point to a resurrection. He says that after his "change comes, "You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for the work of Your hands." God will call to him in the grave and he will answer him. This plainly at least implies resurrection. But apparently in that resurrection state he will not know what is going on back on earth. Verse 13 states that he will be hidden sheol until God remembers him, apparently at the time of resurrection. So I think both of these passages though not explicit plainly imply resurrection.

winstonjen

Firstly, Ed, he doesn't have to - he's not making a positive claim. There is no reason for him to believe that the Xian god exists without decent proof. And no, the accounts of Jesus don't count - they could easily be fabricated. Would you believe rumours and hearsay without evidence?

Secondly, the depiction of the Xian god does not exist - if you take it as being the omnimax god.

Jack the Bodiless

This is what the Bible plainly states. Therefore this is what any unbiased Biblical scholar would assume the author meant.

Obviously, Christian Bible scholars would put a different "spin" on it, because they don't want to believe what the Bible says. But how many Bible scholars are Christians? Many are either Jews or atheist/agnostic.

I get the impression that you wish to pretend that non-Christian Biblical scholars do not exist.
This claim is fiction, and contradicts the Biblical principle that children CAN be blamed (even punished) for the crimes of their parents.

Earlier, you had no problem with this. Surely it's OK because Jesus isn't a government (it's only wrong for governments to do this, right?). And, in any case, the murderers of the prophets would have their sin coded into their "spiritual DNA" for their descendants to inherit, right?

Occasionally, the absurdity of your position gets through to you and slaps you in the face, causing you to briefly wake up and connect with reality. In these brief lucid moments, you realize that the Bible is indefensible and abandon it to concoct an alternative story. Then the walls close in again, and you can't tell the difference between fact and fiction anymore.

Fascinating.

winstonjen

I'd agree that this is possible, and that Ed needs some serious mental help, robotic reprogramming, or some special mind-altering drugs. Surely any sane theist would give up trying to defend a position like his by now...

Ed

I admit it is a little more ambiguous than Job and Daniel and he may very well not be referring to life after death.

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ng: Why was the child killed by Yahweh? 2 Sam 12 11 "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 'Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'" 13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14 "However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die." Obviously Yahweh wanted to punish David for what he did. Note verse 11 where he threatens to have his wives raped in order to punish him. What a moral God? He would have a man's wife raped in order TO PUNISH HIM.

No, he would allow them to be raped, he does not cause it directly. But nevertheless, any time you doing something wrong there is always a chance that your family could be impacted by the consequences. And also we don't know all the dynamics of his marriages to these women, some of these women may have been doing some very bad things that are not recorded in the scriptures. God may have been withholding judgement on them just because they were married to David, but now they are going to receive their accounting. This is a rational assumption given the overall biblical context.

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ng: What about the wives? Women are just not that important! There is no such thing as a crime against a woman. A raped woman is a crime against her husband or her father but not against her.

No, see Deut. 22 and my commentary about it to Jack on page 17.

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ng: Verse 13: Wow! That is all it takes. But what about the law? David has killed a man and seduced his wife both of which are crime which require him to be stoned to death. Is the law different for David than for everyone else?

No, but sometimes God is gracious if the person truly repents. Only God has this perogative.

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ng: Verse 14 David shall not die HOWEVER because of what DAVID DID ("by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme") the child shall die. So the child was killed because of what David did. David was not punished. Instead his child was killed.

No, David was punished by the death of the child. Death is not always punishment for the person experiencing it. The child may have had some horrible genetic defect that would have caused its life to be a life of terrible suffering so God just took him. Or he may have grown up to commit terrible crimes because of his unseemly origin, but instead God took him as child so he would not have gone to hell for his crimes as an adult. All of these are rational assumptions given the overall biblical context.

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ng: Surely what gives enemies of the Lord occasions to blaspheme is the murder of Uriah and adultery with his wife not the birth of a child. Clearly this is again punishing children for the sins of their fathers. But notice again the threat to have David's wives raped. This Yahweh has problems with punishing the person who committed the crime. He is ready to punish all the innocent but not the guilty.

No, the fathers are punished by the deaths of their children but death is not always a punishment, see above. Also, according to the scriptures noone is truly innocent.

Jack the Bodiless

Unbelievable!

Even for YOU, Ed, this is a BLATANT lie.

Deuteronomy 22 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you WANT it to say. It is PROOF that, according to the Bible, rape is a crime against a man: NOT against the woman.

And you KNOW that, because I HAVE POINTED THIS OUT TO YOU ALREADY.

But you don't want to believe what the Bible says, so you carry on repeating the same lie!

Ed, you are obviously profoundly ashamed of your religion, but something is stopping you from doing the decent thing and admitting this fact to yourself. You will carry on "Lying for the Lord" even though it's obvious to everyone here that you're not doing it to make your case to US, but to delude YOURSELF.

Let it go, Ed. You really don't need it.

Jack the Bodiless

As for the rest:
Another lie. What part of the phrase "I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion" do you not understand, Ed?

God caused the rape directly. The Bible says so.
This isn't like losing your family in a car crash because you were driving too fast. This is DELIBERATE malice from an evil God.
No, it is not. The Biblical context is that rape is not a crime against women. Furthermore, the Biblical context is that the punishment of innocents for the crimes of others is acceptable and normal. Therefore the rational assumption is that these women were raped for the reason STATED in the Bible, not your fictional reason.
More bullshit.
...And neither you nor anyone else have ever succeeded in justifying that ridiculous assertion.

Ed

The bible doesn't sugar coat reality (unlike many manmade religious books), but it never condones it as I have demonstrated. Also as I stated earlier "humbled" doesn't always mean rape. Actually women in hebrew society were better off than many other societies at the time.

Ed

But there should be at least some transitions from different orders, families, and genera, but there are none.

They ARE all young earthers. I know of none that are flat earthers however.


He has studied hebrew, so he is more qualified than you or I. Or are you going revert to the no true biblical scholar fallacy?

No, because it contradicts the hebrew in my opinion but if he can provide more evidence than maybe I could be convinced.

Just because most of the ancient hebrews may have believed that the earth was flat, does not mean that the bible teaches it.

No, firmament means "expanse" in hebrew (see Strongs) not anything solid. Also nothing here about the earth being flat.

Actually, it says windows of heaven, not firmament. The term translated "windows" just means openings. Since the ancient hebrews didnt understand cloud and rain formation they just assumed that the water came from God in heaven thru openings in heaven, God's residence. And again, nothing about a flat earth.

The is the end of part I of my response.