Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jewel · 07-23-2003, 04:38 AM

From Maryland's SunSpot.net

Quote:

ROCKVILLE - The one-page flier seems fairly routine, with its towheaded cartoon character cheerily inviting elementary school kids to join the after-school Good News Club.
It was the finer print, though, the part that described the time that would be spent hearing Bible stories and memorizing Scripture, that led the Montgomery County schools to ban it from being sent home in pupils' backpacks.

That action has sparked a court case that will soon be reviewed by a federal appeals court. The case has drawn wide interest, including that of the Justice Department, which is siding with the evangelical Christian group that sponsors the club.

After being told that teachers couldn't pass out the informational fliers - despite a longstanding practice of doing that for many other nonprofit groups - the Child Evangelism Fellowship of Maryland sued the public schools claiming the group was being unfairly denied access to its potential clientele because of its religious bent.

Montgomery County officials, meanwhile, argue the ban is an attempt to follow the intent of the U.S. Constitution's establishment clause, which has served as a wall separating government and religion. By being forced to hand out religious fliers, school attorneys argue, teachers become unwitting missionaries.

Worldtraveller · 07-23-2003, 05:32 AM

How is it that teachers would be "forced to hand out religious fliers"? I agree that this would be a clear violation of the establishment clause. However, if the teachers voluntarily did so, or they were left someplace around the scool for students to pick up, or more likely, ignore, then that would be a bit more tenuous, I would think.

I would hope that any secular group would be able to offer flyers, although they should not be able to force teachers to hand them out either.

The story is a bit fuzzy on the details. Any followup will be closely watched, thanks for the heads up!

Lane

dangin · 07-23-2003, 05:59 AM

If the churchies win this one someone needs to ask to put the "Bright Club" flyers, or the "Satan's Youth Auxilliary", or the Kids Gay and Lesbian Acceptance Club" flyers into this school immediately. Watching the school reject these, and then bringing an equal access suit would be very educational for school boards everywhere.

scumble · 07-23-2003, 08:04 AM

It's the "memorizing scripture" bit that's somewhat dodgy, but anyway, it's far from officially endorsed.

In the UK, at school we did have religious teachers telling kids about christianity, the bible etc. I'm not sure what effect it has anymore, but really religious kids at school are rare as far as I know.

However, in Religious Education classes we did learn about humanism alongside everything else.

Ab_Normal · 07-23-2003, 09:28 AM

Here's a quote from the quote:

Quote:

After being told that teachers couldn't pass out the informational fliers - despite a longstanding practice of doing that for many other nonprofit groups - the Child Evangelism Fellowship of Maryland sued the public schools claiming the group was being unfairly denied access to its potential clientele because of its religious bent.

If other extra-curricular groups which meet after hours are allowed to do it, I think the xian group may have standing do to so as well. My kid brings home tons of crap from the youth sports associations, the YMCA, the Scouts... a religious one would just get chucked as well.

Happy Wonderer · 07-23-2003, 10:46 PM

By their reasoning, teachers must also be able to send home flyers from the local Madras (Islamic school)...

I don't see how this could pass the establishment clause. Public money is being used to promote religion -- it takes a significant amount of time to distribute flyers. The religious group is getting a financial benefit from the government; they are not having to pay for a mass mailing.

The important point is that this is a flyer about a religious event. The argument that "other groups get to do it, but we don't" will not fly -- other groups are not advertising religious events and therefore do not come into conflict with laws designed to prevent the government establishing an religion.

However, were I superintendent in a district faced with this issue, I would just cease to distribute any flyers that were not generated by the school district or mandated by the government. Teachers have enough junk to deal with; they don't need to become junk-mail distributors as well. After-school groups can use the postal service and the internet just like everybody else.

Of course the reason that the religious group is doing this is because it looks like the school is endorsing them; how many kids (or parents) are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between flyers about endorsed events and flyers about other events?

hw

fragmentsofdreams · 07-23-2003, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer
By their reasoning, teachers must also be able to send home flyers from the local Madras (Islamic school)...

I don't see how this could pass the establishment clause. Public money is being used to promote religion -- it takes a significant amount of time to distribute flyers. The religious group is getting a financial benefit from the government; they are not having to pay for a mass mailing.

The important point is that this is a flyer about a religious event. The argument that "other groups get to do it, but we don't" will not fly -- other groups are not advertising religious events and therefore do not come into conflict with laws designed to prevent the government establishing an religion.

However, were I superintendent in a district faced with this issue, I would just cease to distribute any flyers that were not generated by the school district or mandated by the government. Teachers have enough junk to deal with; they don't need to become junk-mail distributors as well. After-school groups can use the postal service and the internet just like everybody else.

Of course the reason that the religious group is doing this is because it looks like the school is endorsing them; how many kids (or parents) are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between flyers about endorsed events and flyers about other events?

hw

I think your standard is flawed. A group should not be denied access to a public resource on account of a religious affiliation. If you have a problem with the flyer system in general, that is fine, but excluding religious groups is discriminatory.

Worldtraveller · 07-24-2003, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
I think your standard is flawed. A group should not be denied access to a public resource on account of a religious affiliation. If you have a problem with the flyer system in general, that is fine, but excluding religious groups is discriminatory.

I have to agree here...somewhat. In my view, and IANAL, if the school were to simply make the flyers available, it would probably be ok. However, if the district, or school is actually asking teachers to hand them out to thier classes, that would most likely be in violation of the establishment clause.

Just my $0.02

Lane

xorbie · 07-24-2003, 12:48 AM

Personally, I think that the Christian group, or any group for that matter should either hand the flyers out themselves, post them up somewhere, or ship them themselves to each parent's house. Asking teachers to waste class time is absurd, as is forcing them to give something out. If I had enough $ to waste on paper, I could just waltz in and ask the school to hand out 5,000 flyers and effectively shut it down for a couple weeks. Absurd.

Ab_Normal · 07-24-2003, 09:18 AM

At my kid's school, each child has their own "cubby", which is where the teacher (more likely, the TA) stuffs the papers that are being sent home. The kids are supposed to check them every day and take stuff home... it doesn't happen reliably, I'll tell you that much.

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07-23-2003, 05:32 AM	#2
Worldtraveller Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 7,834	How is it that teachers would be "forced to hand out religious fliers"? I agree that this would be a clear violation of the establishment clause. However, if the teachers voluntarily did so, or they were left someplace around the scool for students to pick up, or more likely, ignore, then that would be a bit more tenuous, I would think. I would hope that any secular group would be able to offer flyers, although they should not be able to force teachers to hand them out either. The story is a bit fuzzy on the details. Any followup will be closely watched, thanks for the heads up! Lane

07-23-2003, 05:59 AM	#3
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	If the churchies win this one someone needs to ask to put the "Bright Club" flyers, or the "Satan's Youth Auxilliary", or the Kids Gay and Lesbian Acceptance Club" flyers into this school immediately. Watching the school reject these, and then bringing an equal access suit would be very educational for school boards everywhere.

07-23-2003, 08:04 AM	#4
scumble Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 279	It's the "memorizing scripture" bit that's somewhat dodgy, but anyway, it's far from officially endorsed. In the UK, at school we did have religious teachers telling kids about christianity, the bible etc. I'm not sure what effect it has anymore, but really religious kids at school are rare as far as I know. However, in Religious Education classes we did learn about humanism alongside everything else.

07-23-2003, 10:46 PM	#6
Happy Wonderer Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington, the least religious state Posts: 5,334	By their reasoning, teachers must also be able to send home flyers from the local Madras (Islamic school)... I don't see how this could pass the establishment clause. Public money is being used to promote religion -- it takes a significant amount of time to distribute flyers. The religious group is getting a financial benefit from the government; they are not having to pay for a mass mailing. The important point is that this is a flyer about a religious event. The argument that "other groups get to do it, but we don't" will not fly -- other groups are not advertising religious events and therefore do not come into conflict with laws designed to prevent the government establishing an religion. However, were I superintendent in a district faced with this issue, I would just cease to distribute any flyers that were not generated by the school district or mandated by the government. Teachers have enough junk to deal with; they don't need to become junk-mail distributors as well. After-school groups can use the postal service and the internet just like everybody else. Of course the reason that the religious group is doing this is because it looks like the school is endorsing them; how many kids (or parents) are sophisticated enough to tell the difference between flyers about endorsed events and flyers about other events? hw

07-24-2003, 12:48 AM	#9
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	Personally, I think that the Christian group, or any group for that matter should either hand the flyers out themselves, post them up somewhere, or ship them themselves to each parent's house. Asking teachers to waste class time is absurd, as is forcing them to give something out. If I had enough $ to waste on paper, I could just waltz in and ask the school to hand out 5,000 flyers and effectively shut it down for a couple weeks. Absurd.

07-24-2003, 09:18 AM	#10
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	At my kid's school, each child has their own "cubby", which is where the teacher (more likely, the TA) stuffs the papers that are being sent home. The kids are supposed to check them every day and take stuff home... it doesn't happen reliably, I'll tell you that much.

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