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03-04-2003, 09:59 AM | #101 | |
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Jeez did a veggie beat you up once or something??? Hang on, think I'll cut my cat's tail off and then let her tell you if she suffered in any meaningful sense. |
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03-04-2003, 10:01 AM | #102 | |
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I am not attempting to make any one feel guilty or cast doubt on your character, or reasons from abstaining from meat eating. I personally have no problem with anyone chosing vegetarianism for the reasons you have stated. Your reasons are perfectly valid. However, the moral argument presented by some vegetarians is the suffering quotent and the deplorable conditions quotent (which you also presented) should be addressed in reverse as well. As a person who works for the rights of the migrant/immigrant worker I understand all too well what these very human people suffer through, and how horribly they are exploited. If morality is an issue that causes someone to chose vegetarianism I think it is entirely pertinent to be aware of the ethical dilemmas relative to vegetarianism, specifically the millions of men, women and children that suffer just as badly as the animals. The flesh of these men, women and children does not wind up on our tables but their exploitation allows for cheap prices and those fruits and veggies are brought to at their very human expense. That is why I offered links to relative sites so those conscious of this fact can make more responsible choices regarding the purchase of fruits, vegetables and the such. I also provided links for meat eaters who are interested in environmentally and socially responsible growers who harvest free range, organic animal products - including dairy for the lacto-ovo vegetarians we have here as well. I attacked no one. I simply provided another side of this debate that is often over looked, but in my opinion is just as important as the ethical treatment of animals and proper care of the environment. It was not my intent to make any feel guilty, but rather to bring awareness to an issue I am very familiar with to further the moral position of the vegetarian and the meat eater. We should all do our best, when we can, to make socially responsible choices. We should do our best to minimize and eliminate suffering, waste, and abuse where we can. If you now feel guilty about your choices then that is a personal issue you alone must deal with. If you gleaned intent other then what I presented I apologize, but I feel I did a very careful job in wording my post to be nothing more then informative. Please reread my post in that light and perhaps you will come to a different conclusion. Brighid |
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03-04-2003, 10:20 AM | #103 |
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Hey Brighid I found your links very informative and I understand your turmoil given that you actually work with these unfortunate people.
I suppose it wasn't what you said but how you had put it just that one paragraph. It did look a little like tit for tat, I'm wrong, you've proved that and I apologise for it. On the positive side I will look out for fruit and vegetable produce in my supermarket that comes in from the states, I'll check the label, what should I be looking for to assure myself that it's came from a company that cares about it's workers??? I couldn't find anything on the site offhand. |
03-04-2003, 10:50 AM | #104 |
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Well, it’s hard to always pin point what to look for, BUT look for UFW labels on fruit and vegetables. If you can’t find any labels, research the companies you find supplying the fruits and vegetables. You can contact: http://www.ufw.org/ for more information. The local UFW chapter (or possibly a regional one if necessary) may have a list of approved growers, or at least ones to avoid. Here is a link to that site that gives a list of growers who use a Union work force: http://www.ufw.org/ulmth.htm
Although I do not work with workers in THAT specific industry I do work with immigrant workers, and many have come from the farm worker industry. Unfortunately the plight of the immigrant (both Polish and Hispanic) in my industry is hardly different, and in most cases nearly identical. I work for a specialized branch of a major Labor Union that is responsible for researching abuse and taking abusive employers to court on the local, state and federal level. I kid you not when I say that men are murdered to keep them silent about the abuse. Your best bet is to see if you can hook up with a co-op in your area, or even purchase your food from a local health food store. Whole Foods is a big chain and they are generally up front about their growers. I really like having the ability to visit the farm we purchase from and be a part of the actual operation. Once a week I go to a specific drop off site and receive a bushel of organically grown veggies, fruits and herbs. It is awesome and I get to try some things I might not otherwise think of – like heirloom varieties of certain fruits and veggies. You get A LOT of produce. You feel good about what you are eating, the impact you are making on the environment and you support a local, small business instead of a corporate conglomerate. Unfortunately, I find the prices at Whole Foods to often be outside of our budget and that is why we chose to sort of cut out the middle man and go directly to the growers. We have enjoyed everything we have purchased thus far and the quality has been excellent. I highly recommend using the co-op. You usually have to pay about $400-500 by the end of the year to reserve your spot for the coming season. That seems like a lot, but consider how much $ you spend on your groceries and you realize that this method is rather economical, plus you get all the other benefits I previously mentioned Plots go very quickly so be aware of that! Good luck. Brighid |
03-04-2003, 01:47 PM | #105 |
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Good idea Brighid, we have a co-op in the village part of our town. I'm going to check out a few other places as well and thanks for the time and effort you spent there I appreciate it.
I hate unscrupulous employers that do nothing to help their workforce, keep them low paid etc etc. My area of interest is health and saftety, my dream job would be an inspector for the HSE here in Britain but I can't even drive yet so that will have to wait till next year - again. I'm still going to try for it though. It's a bloody disgrace that these people, the most vulnerable members of society are treated that way even murdered to shut them up. Shame on those that perpetrate this and even worse the ones who cover it up. kudos to you for your strength and determination and being there for those people. |
03-04-2003, 01:50 PM | #106 |
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I wish I could be a vegetarian, but I have a fondness for the occasional burger or roast beef sandwich...although I must say, I've had veggie burgers which are just as good, if not better, than the meat variety.
[edited to add: I also like veggie-dogs...but I can't get used to the tofu brands! ] |
03-04-2003, 02:29 PM | #107 | |
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It's not about being perfect... which is impossible... it's about doing what you can. And being a vegetarian is easy for me... it's one of those things I can REASONABLY do to help the world be a better place. And... if immigrants are really treated that badly... why are they here? Obviously if they've decided to stay they're getting something better here than what they had at home... or else they wouldn't be falling over each other to get here. Animals raised for slaughter don't even have that choice. |
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03-04-2003, 05:23 PM | #108 | |
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03-05-2003, 02:46 AM | #109 | |
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You're also using "immoral" in a scatter-gun fashion - it has heavy-handed overtones. No-one said homosexuality was immoral (or that heterosexuality was moral, or vice versa). I wouldn't say that eating meat was "immoral", more that it was an indefensible practice in a civilised society that is a self-appointed custodian for all the sentient life on the planet. |
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03-05-2003, 06:32 AM | #110 | |
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They are promised a good life in America, with spacious living quarters and good wages but when they get here they are stuffed into tiny, unsanitary, dangerous living quarters. They do not know the laws here, they do not trust law enforcement (given they come from very politically corrupt countries) and they don't speak English. They are also monitored closely and their movement outside of their "compound" is restricted. It's just a slightly shinier version of the slavery that this nation was built on. The plight of the farm worker, the sweat shop slave, etc. is no less important then the plight of the animals held in similar conditions. It is sad (and disturbing to me) that you seem to care less about these men, women and children then you seem to care about animals. Furthermore, and even if some of them did have a choice ... these major corporations making billions of dollars in profits has the ability to pay these men, women and CHILDREN (and child labor IS illegal in this country) a living wage. They are simply too greedy to cut into their bottom line and frankly don't give a shit about these "stupid wet back" that is "dumb enough" to come to this country looking for a better life. Many of them hold a similar attitude as yours .... they feel they are providing them a better life then they had and they have a choice to leave if they don't like it. It's truly sad when anyone thinks living under those conditions is better, and this is America for crying out loud and I think we can do a little bit better. Many of the body brokers and sub-contractors honestly believe they are doing something "good" and helping out their compadres. The testimony I have had to review ... well ... let me just say it is disturbing in it's callous disregard from human life. I appreciate your sentiment about the lives of animals. I share the desire to see all living beings treated with value, but if you are taking a moral position on vegetarianism then I would hope you would desire to be morally consistent about the treatment of the human beings that live and sometimes die to bring some of that produce to the American table. Brighid |
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