Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 05-14-2003, 09:06 AM

Whispers, I suggest talking to some other Christians to increase your sample size. In my experience Christians have the same distribution of good people, evil people, decent folk, and selfish thugs as any other demographic group. If conversing with Richard exposes you to new ideas that help you be a better, more fulfilled person, then great. If he is a good friend to you and your family, even better. But that is not evidence that his religion is true. I also suggest learning more about other forms of Buddhism; in my not-very-informed opinion Theravidism obscures the best parts of Buddhist philosophy with ritual and religious baggage. And remember you don't have to call yourself a Buddhist, a Christian, or anything. Take what works best for you from a myriad of traditions. If there is a god she is too big and unknowable to confine to one particular set of beliefs and traditions.

Mageth · 05-14-2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Whispers
Thats because he (God, not richard ) cannot prove himself, because that would take away our choice.

Why? If god proved himself, if we knew there was a god, what "choice" would be taken away from us? The choice to believe or not believe in god? I thought god wanted us to believe in him. The choice to follow or not follow god? It seems to me that we would still have that choice.

The whole notion of a god that plays "hide-and-seek" with us is, well, rather ludicrous.

If you know fire burns, you no longer have to think about whether or not fire burns. You simply know.

What? Knowing fire will burn you is a good thing, is it not, and something every child should be taught without really being burned. So why would it be such a bad thing, if god exists, to be shown that god exists without having to get "burned" yourself?

Mageth · 05-14-2003, 09:17 AM

And remember you don't have to call yourself a Buddhist, a Christian, or anything. Take what works best for you from a myriad of traditions. If there is a god she is too big and unknowable to confine to one particular set of beliefs and traditions.

Excellent advice.

Whispers, I'd suggest reading some Joseph Campbell to get an idea of what's really behind, and within, the world's religions, and to perhaps follow the path Campbell teaches that's along the lines of what Godless Dave recommends. Campbell teaches the common themes and motifs in the world's major religions, and many of the minor ones as well. He also teaches that religion is often a barrier to self-realization, to spirituality, to recognizing the unknowable "god", the transcendant, that may or may not be out there (or, rather, within you).

Campbell's An Open Life is an easy read, and a good place to start.

BioBeing · 05-14-2003, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whispers
Thats because he (God, not richard ) cannot prove himself, because that would take away our choice. If you know fire burns, you no longer have to think about whether or not fire burns. You simply know.

Exactly - you simply know! Take away the mind-f*ck. Since this does not happen, I am an atheist.

BTW - Are you a bad person, just because you are buddhist? No? Then maybe Richard is thinking that non-believers can be good too? Maybe you have opened his eyes to non-christians. All anyone can hope for is to be the best they can be. I do not thank God for who I am - I thank my parents.

Infidelettante · 05-14-2003, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whispers
Thats because he (God, not richard ) cannot prove himself, because that would take away our choice. If you know fire burns, you no longer have to think about whether or not fire burns. You simply know.

To me Whispers, this sound like a very Christian view point for a "Buddhist at heart" to maintain. I find you often use Christian thought patterns. Perhaps you have moved closer to Christianity than you know. Or, more than you would like us to know. You seem to be giving us evidence for Christian faith. And in a very round about way.

Please explain why Buddhism know longer satisfies your religious need.

JT

lpetrich · 05-14-2003, 08:59 PM

Also, those questions he posed for us have a very Xtian sort of slant. Like where did we come from.

This seems very different from the viewpoint attributed to the Buddha about the origin of the Universe:

If one is stuck with a poisoned arrow, one's first priority is to remove it, and not to ask about its construction or who sent the arrow on its way or why he did it or any other such questions.

Queen of Swords · 05-14-2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by Whispers
Thats because he (God, not richard ) cannot prove himself, because that would take away our choice.

So God took away the choices of Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and every person in the New Testament who supposedly met him, but now it's no longer cool to take away choices?

If you know fire burns, you no longer have to think about whether or not fire burns. You simply know.

If there's an important fact of life (like sex education, for example) I'd like to know about it, rather than guessing.

lpetrich · 05-14-2003, 11:10 PM

It's always nice to see someone here who has read the Bible.

Whispers · 05-15-2003, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JTVrocher
To me Whispers, this sound like a very Christian view point for a "Buddhist at heart" to maintain. I find you often use Christian thought patterns. Perhaps you have moved closer to Christianity than you know. Or, more than you would like us to know. You seem to be giving us evidence for Christian faith. And in a very round about way.

Please explain why Buddhism know longer satisfies your religious need.

JT

I am a seeker of truth. Buddhism has opened my eyes to certain things. I am interested in Christianity and what it offers. Simple as that

Quote:

[i] Also, those questions he posed for us have a very Xtian sort of slant. Like where did we come from.

This seems very different from the viewpoint attributed to the Buddha about the origin of the Universe:

If one is stuck with a poisoned arrow, one's first priority is to remove it, and not to ask about its construction or who sent the arrow on its way or why he did it or any other such questions.

Did the buddha have an opinion or viewpoint on the begining of the universe? And even if he did, what does that have to do with me? Quite obviously I am not the buddha. I am me

Starboy · 05-15-2003, 06:54 AM

**Insulting post and name calling deleted-AV**

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05-14-2003, 09:06 AM	#11
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Whispers, I suggest talking to some other Christians to increase your sample size. In my experience Christians have the same distribution of good people, evil people, decent folk, and selfish thugs as any other demographic group. If conversing with Richard exposes you to new ideas that help you be a better, more fulfilled person, then great. If he is a good friend to you and your family, even better. But that is not evidence that his religion is true. I also suggest learning more about other forms of Buddhism; in my not-very-informed opinion Theravidism obscures the best parts of Buddhist philosophy with ritual and religious baggage. And remember you don't have to call yourself a Buddhist, a Christian, or anything. Take what works best for you from a myriad of traditions. If there is a god she is too big and unknowable to confine to one particular set of beliefs and traditions.

05-14-2003, 09:09 AM	#12
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by Whispers Thats because he (God, not richard ) cannot prove himself, because that would take away our choice. Why? If god proved himself, if we knew there was a god, what "choice" would be taken away from us? The choice to believe or not believe in god? I thought god wanted us to believe in him. The choice to follow or not follow god? It seems to me that we would still have that choice. The whole notion of a god that plays "hide-and-seek" with us is, well, rather ludicrous. If you know fire burns, you no longer have to think about whether or not fire burns. You simply know. What? Knowing fire will burn you is a good thing, is it not, and something every child should be taught without really being burned. So why would it be such a bad thing, if god exists, to be shown that god exists without having to get "burned" yourself?

05-14-2003, 09:17 AM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	And remember you don't have to call yourself a Buddhist, a Christian, or anything. Take what works best for you from a myriad of traditions. If there is a god she is too big and unknowable to confine to one particular set of beliefs and traditions. Excellent advice. Whispers, I'd suggest reading some Joseph Campbell to get an idea of what's really behind, and within, the world's religions, and to perhaps follow the path Campbell teaches that's along the lines of what Godless Dave recommends. Campbell teaches the common themes and motifs in the world's major religions, and many of the minor ones as well. He also teaches that religion is often a barrier to self-realization, to spirituality, to recognizing the unknowable "god", the transcendant, that may or may not be out there (or, rather, within you). Campbell's An Open Life is an easy read, and a good place to start.

05-14-2003, 08:59 PM	#16
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Also, those questions he posed for us have a very Xtian sort of slant. Like where did we come from. This seems very different from the viewpoint attributed to the Buddha about the origin of the Universe: If one is stuck with a poisoned arrow, one's first priority is to remove it, and not to ask about its construction or who sent the arrow on its way or why he did it or any other such questions.

05-14-2003, 09:13 PM	#17
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Whispers Thats because he (God, not richard ) cannot prove himself, because that would take away our choice. So God took away the choices of Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and every person in the New Testament who supposedly met him, but now it's no longer cool to take away choices? If you know fire burns, you no longer have to think about whether or not fire burns. You simply know. If there's an important fact of life (like sex education, for example) I'd like to know about it, rather than guessing.

05-14-2003, 11:10 PM	#18
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	It's always nice to see someone here who has read the Bible.

05-15-2003, 06:54 AM	#20
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Insulting post and name calling deleted-AV

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