sighhswolf

I must admit to my knowledge of certain historical figures to be woefully inadequate.
I was trying to find information concerning the
protestant seperation from catholicism and reformation ideals.

Generally I knew basic facts about this event but
someone asked me a question I could not answer, so I was forced to seek additional information.

I began my inquirey with Martin Luther because I knew very little about the man.
What I never realized before was how violently
anti-Jewish this man was.
I had some general information about Luther and the catholic church, but I was shocked at the
bigotry of this man.

I cut some qoutes from his writings:

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...

Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away.

-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

Do the christians out there know what Luther actually said, because in seminary they gave us rudimentary information but I never read direct quotes from this man.
How is it possible for a clergyman to be so bigoted and inspire their followers to acts of hate against others, no matter who the "others"
are?
I am just taken aback at the lack of documentation
of this mans antisemitism, in the classrooms of the Protestant faiths, or at least those I had experienced.

Whats the difference between this protestant reformer and the Islamic terrorists?
They both advocate violence against those who do not share their faith.
Wolf

beoba

Whoever controls the present, controls the past.

Eudaimonist

Whoever controls the past, controls the future.

Eudaimonist

I think you've answered your own question, but remember that there are plenty of people in the world who are opposed to anti-semitism, and that is cause for hope.

Shake

Luther did not actually follow through with these things. The Reformation was intended to be merely a revamping of the Catholic Church, not a spin-off to start whole new religious sects. Or so I was taught. I was also taught (this just came to me) that Jesus didn't intend to start a new church (Xianity) either!

sullster

Martin Luther is an utterly fascinating individual. He was a raving anti-semite, but who in Christian Europe wasn't in the Sixteenth Century? Read about the Catholic Inquisition,(usually referred to as the Spanish Inquisition). and see how the catholics treated Jews.

The thing about Luther is that he spear-headed a religious revolution which convulsed Western society and its effects are very much still with us. Europe was torn in half between the catholics and the protestant sects. The upheavals affected many aspects of society beyond the religious. It was the great break with the middle ages and unintentionally aided the rise of science and skepticism.

William Manchester's book,"A World Lit only by Fire", is an excellent recalling of Luther's time and his reformation.

There are books out there about Luther and the Reformation. Read. It was a fascinating and eventually bloody era as the two versions of christianity began killing eachother. Fortunately the killing has stopped, except in Northern Ireland of course.

In most of the Western world, protestants and catholics just know that the other group is going to hell and they are going to heaven. They don't bring hell on eachother like they did after Luther split the religion in two. Progress, eh.

Amos

To be angry with the mother Church is normal after salvation and it was not until Luther's eyes first 'opened' (which is the moment he 'got saved') that he became angry in the realization that hypocrates and pharisees had misled him all his life. This 'near miss' on his part caused the anger and so he blamed the Jews while he praised God for that sacred moment when his eyes were opened almost despite himself.

Jesus was also angry with the pharisees and Jesus also blamed them for standing in his way. Since Luther was a priest he was upset with those that were the cause of his own selfrigheousness and they were the Jews of the bible. Hitler did the same and this anger penetrates deep into the very core of their being because that is where this 'realization' takes place.

The anger is quite normal and the anti-previous direction is a natural response when metanoia takes place. We must accept that metanoia is real and if it is real, this instant reversal must have sufficient grounds to motivate that reversal. Hence the anger and for both Hitler and Luther it became anti-semitism while for many Catholics it becomes anti hierarchy of the Church. Many become protestant and they like this because it solidifies their stand with God and Catholics like it because such people are usually obnoxious and fanatical about their newfound love and bible devotion.

Luther was in hell long before he died and that is what the split from the Catholic Church was all about. Let's face it sullster, the Catholic Church can incorporate any native religion that has its own roots in some form of archetypal reality but it cannot tolerate any perversion of truth because they are the gates of hell.

In view of our mythology we are equal to the Jews, no more and no less. Catholicsm is much more aggressive and therefore more productive but that does not make Catholics better people.

sullster

Hi Amos,
The topic starter is interested in history. Martin Luther lived 5 centuries ago and by his actions, started the split of the catholic church. Your catholic partisanship and characteristic bizarre theology is not on the issue.

Luther was very accurate about the corruption of the Renaissance Roman church which was bleeding Germany dry with the sale of indulgences and artifacts, and was building giant churches in Rome. His theology: using only the bible and putting the emphasis on the individual without the intercession of a priest was, and still is, a counter point to the catholic religion.

Amos

Hi sullster, but the speaker was interested in the unusual anger against Jews and this is what I tried to make clear.

How can Luther understand the motivation of the Church if he must judge it from hell because that is where his bitterness against Judaism came from. Notice that I am consistent as I have always held that rebirth lands us in purgatory which becomes hell if it does not change until we die. You may call it bizarre but that is just how it is for some.

GeoTheo

The start of this thread reminds me of people who devalue the founding fathers for being slave owners. I think it is a big "Duh! !!!!" that slave owning and anti-semitism are bad. Good grasp of the obvious SighsWolf. It is also bad to drink water contaminated with microbes from sewers.
Is it possible perhaps to maybe try to use a little objectivity when evaluating historical figures?